How can I make them post process?
There are situations when I add a noise gate or compressor to a track (or group of tracks). If I need to fade that track using the volume envelope, it seems to pre-process that envelop before the effects…understandable. This causes undesirable results when used with a noise gate and or compressor.
Is there a way to make the envelope post-process? Or does this require an aux channel performing as the post-processing volume envelope? Thanks!
Dave
Check the signal path picture in manual page 39. It looks to me like the plug-ins are pre fader unlike you suggested.
I’ve always had an impression volume nevelopes does exactly what a fader would so are you really sure that you’ve got the right impression on the matter?
Hi Katau and varakeef:
I’ve been wanting Flavio to write/code to add GROUPS to the Mixdown/Render process…
Every time I bring this idea into discussion here on the forum the users suggest ways to accomplish this task, but any ideas that have been offered does not properly complete this task…
At the present time you can EQ a group strip you can adjust it’s amplitude, add effects, solo/mute you can remove it (the group) from the mixing desk patch…
BUT… You can’t render/mixdown the group… Why is that 
? Is there some mathematical equation that does not permit “Group Render’ing” in the n-Track Code String ?
So… How do you add volume envelopes to GROUPS? How do you render a series of tracks to a sub- Master/Two-Track?
A Mixing Desk is not complete without having this option available?
There is no workaround for this command…
Bill…
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So… How do you add volume envelopes to GROUPS?
Group volume envelopes perhaps? I have used such. Or do you mean something else?
But what you said about mixdown of groups would be nice I guess.
According to the manual:
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2.14.1. - The n-Track mixing algorithm
The mixing algorithm is conceptually very simple: the tracks are first fed through the inserts effects and then mixed together, each one amplified by a factor resulting from the combination of the master volume, the track volume slider and track drawn evolution.
The volume evolution is used at the very ending of the mixing process so it doesn’t influence the aux sends, even if the pre-fader sends option is unchecked.
After the tracks are mixed all goes to the master channel effects.
Sends and returns are placed at different points depending on the Auxs dialog settings.
The mixing algorithm is conceptually very simple: the tracks are first fed through the inserts effects and then mixed together, each one amplified by a factor resulting from the combination of the master volume, the track volume slider and track drawn evolution.
The volume evolution is used at the very ending of the mixing process so it doesn’t influence the aux sends, even if the pre-fader sends option is unchecked.
After the tracks are mixed all goes to the master channel effects.
Sends and returns are placed at different points depending on the Auxs dialog settings.
So it looks like it’s at least supposed to work with the volume evolutions coming after track effects.
I think the easiest solution would be to put that channel on a group, and use a volume evolution on the group. (Click the little menu-triangle next to the evolution tool.)
The problem with group volume evolotions is that the lines in the timeline are over arbitrary tracks (group 1 is over track 1, etc.) To make life easier, if this is your first group, move the track to the top of the list so the group’s volume line happens to fall on the track it’s affecting.
To mixdown a group, just solo the group and mixdown. You’d probbably want to uncheck the box for “process master channel” to avoid master channel fader and FX.
At one time, there seemed to be a bug with soloing a group and the workaround was to simply solo all channels in the group. Haven’t tried it lately so don’t know whether it’s still an issue.
[quote=learjeff,Jul. 11 2007,12:26][/quote]
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I think the easiest solution would be to put that channel on a group, and use a volume evolution on the group. (Click the little menu-triangle next to the evolution tool.)
The problem with group volume evolotions is that the lines in the timeline are over arbitrary tracks (group 1 is over track 1, etc.) To make life easier, if this is your first group, move the track to the top of the list so the group’s volume line happens to fall on the track it’s affecting.
To mixdown a group, just solo the group and mixdown. You’d probbably want to uncheck the box for “process master channel” to avoid master channel fader and FX.
At one time, there seemed to be a bug with soloing a group and the workaround was to simply solo all channels in the group. Haven’t tried it lately so don’t know whether it’s still an issue.
The problem with group volume evolotions is that the lines in the timeline are over arbitrary tracks (group 1 is over track 1, etc.) To make life easier, if this is your first group, move the track to the top of the list so the group’s volume line happens to fall on the track it’s affecting.
To mixdown a group, just solo the group and mixdown. You’d probbably want to uncheck the box for “process master channel” to avoid master channel fader and FX.
At one time, there seemed to be a bug with soloing a group and the workaround was to simply solo all channels in the group. Haven’t tried it lately so don’t know whether it’s still an issue.
Learjeff:
95% of your reply is having to deal with a “work-around”… for what could be a simple addition to the “Mixdown/Render” Process…
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To mixdown a group, just solo the group and mixdown.
I don’t think you can mixdown a group if it doesn’t appear the “Mixdown/Render” command screen…
Essentially, what you’re hearing-and-mixing down is what’s appearing in the Master Strip… [EDIT] It’s not a “TRUE GROUP RENDER” that you are producing…
The other problem is, you can’t mixdown the “Group’d Tracks” to more than one group at a time… There lies the Crux of rendering groups to a two-Track sub Master.
That’s the “Feature Request” I’ve been asking for…
Bill…
Your math is pretty bad, Bill.
You can add-or-subtract all the math you want to a two track. But, it’s what you hear in the end that matters…
A group sub-mix can’t be rendered using n-Track… I haven’t come up with a work-around to substitute a Group Render and preserve the time-line latencies… From the start of the Mix Session to the the final Two-Track Render…
You’re gonna wait a while if you want me to do a “Signal Flow/Path” block diagram… I can do it if that’ll get me “Rendering Groups” in n-Track…
I have a suspicion you don’t use n-Track to create/mix two-track audio files…
It would be counter productive of me not to support CLONE SONG SECTION and to say that there’s no justification for including it if I don’t think I can use it in my productions… But that isn’t gonna keep me from buying into future versions of n-Track…
The fact of the matter is, I use another Audio Editor to that very same edit. I’ve been doing that sense v1.0 However, that editor doesn’t render 24-bit res. files…
You can already CLONE SONG SELECTIONS using n-Track… In the “Mix Down Section” you use 'Interval to Mixdown"… Cloning song sections is already included with n-Track… But you have to use a Work-Around, to do what you want to-do…
The “MIX DOWN” Song feature of n-Track needs some major re-organization and upgrading… It happens to be something that has seen little-if-any up-dating sense the early versions of v2
Your resourcefulness is pretty bad, learjeff.
Bill…
Katau, a simple work-around would be to mix down the effected track, then import the copy into the song. You can mute the original, and apply volume evolutions to the mixed-down track, and save the original for future changes…
But…
You can change the signal path so effects are post or pre volume control. There are three little icons above the eq knobs in the channel strips. Right-click on them, and you will get an options drop-down menu. Bingo!
'til next time;
Tony
p.s.; I am pretty certain it works the same on group track, but I haven’t tried it yet…
'til;
TW
Tony - I thought that the little icons above the EQ were for the Aux sends routing (which can indeed be pre or post volume).
Has anyone actually checked that track volume envelopes are processed before the inserts? The documentation suggests otherwise. Even so, I can see how, if you ran the volume envelope on the track and the insert (compressor for example) on the group, then this could cause an issue. It would be a bit like manual fader riding being offset by auto fader riding.
Ta
John
I just found this useful little post on the KVR forum that I thought was pertinent:
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Pre-fader versus post-fader:
Without going too deep into mixer topologies, the channel fader sets the gain (you might also think of it as the level or volume, though it’s not quite the same thing) of the sound going into the mix bus (also called the 2-bus or the master channel). Placing effects before the fader (pre-fader) mean that those effects will “hear” the same level, no matter what the fader is set to. Placing effects after the fader (post-fader) will mean that thsoe effects will “hear” a level depending on what the fader is set to. This is particularly noticeable with effects such as compression, which respond differently depending on the level of the sound. If you set up yoru compressor pre-fader, then it will behave the same no matter what the fader is set to. On the other hand, if you set up your comrpessor post-fader, then higher fader gain will result in more compression and lower fader gain will result in less comprssion. In effect, you will use the fader to simultaneously set the audible volume of the sound in the mix AND “drive” the compression. Normally this is not such a good idea beacuse it makes it more difficult to fine-tune the mix (changing the volume changes the compression too).
Post-fader effects are typically not used often, except for sends (also called “aux sends” or “FX sends”). The “send” effectively duplicates the sound and sends one copy to the send channel (the other copy is sent through the original channel as normal). If a wet reverb is applied to the send channel, you’ll have two channels making sound - the original “dry” (no reverb) channel, and the “wet” (reverb) send channel. If the send is post-fader, then the sound level that is sent to the reverb depends on the fader setting. This way, if you adjust the fader (to fine tune the mix, or perhaps automate a fade in or out) the RELATIVE level of the reverb stays the same. On the other hand, if the send it pre-fader, the absolute level of the reverb stays the same (so if you turn the fader all the way down, you’ll still hear some reverb, and if you turn the fader all the way up, you’ll hear less reverb relative to the original sound).
Without going too deep into mixer topologies, the channel fader sets the gain (you might also think of it as the level or volume, though it’s not quite the same thing) of the sound going into the mix bus (also called the 2-bus or the master channel). Placing effects before the fader (pre-fader) mean that those effects will “hear” the same level, no matter what the fader is set to. Placing effects after the fader (post-fader) will mean that thsoe effects will “hear” a level depending on what the fader is set to. This is particularly noticeable with effects such as compression, which respond differently depending on the level of the sound. If you set up yoru compressor pre-fader, then it will behave the same no matter what the fader is set to. On the other hand, if you set up your comrpessor post-fader, then higher fader gain will result in more compression and lower fader gain will result in less comprssion. In effect, you will use the fader to simultaneously set the audible volume of the sound in the mix AND “drive” the compression. Normally this is not such a good idea beacuse it makes it more difficult to fine-tune the mix (changing the volume changes the compression too).
Post-fader effects are typically not used often, except for sends (also called “aux sends” or “FX sends”). The “send” effectively duplicates the sound and sends one copy to the send channel (the other copy is sent through the original channel as normal). If a wet reverb is applied to the send channel, you’ll have two channels making sound - the original “dry” (no reverb) channel, and the “wet” (reverb) send channel. If the send is post-fader, then the sound level that is sent to the reverb depends on the fader setting. This way, if you adjust the fader (to fine tune the mix, or perhaps automate a fade in or out) the RELATIVE level of the reverb stays the same. On the other hand, if the send it pre-fader, the absolute level of the reverb stays the same (so if you turn the fader all the way down, you’ll still hear some reverb, and if you turn the fader all the way up, you’ll hear less reverb relative to the original sound).
You can control what is sent to an aux channel using the send automation control. So there are at least three ways to get the effect K needs…
'til next time;
Tony
Thanks…that solved my problem. I love this place! Now…back to mixin’