Yikes!

[DrGuitar]

Quote (TomS @ Feb. 03 2006,06:47)

DrG, it is not a religiour war, any more than the conflict in Northern Ireland. .. The leaders use religion as a political tool.

So we agree then? I think the cartoon was about your sentence exactly The leaders use religion as a political tool.

It doesn't really matter what it is really about because...
The leaders use religion as a political tool.

It doesn't matter what I think or you think. All that matters is that...

The leaders use religion as a political tool.

[John]

Quote (DrGuitar @ Feb. 02 2006,20:03)

That same cartoon could just as easily had Jesus firing a scud at the ryder truck.

Not really...

Jesus taught us to "turn the other cheek", the Bible says that Jesus allowed himself to be crucified even though he could have called upon God to drop some serious fire and brimstone to save his butt... so depicting Jesus committing an act of violence has no grounds in what he stood for (aside from the temper tantrum in the temple over the money-lenders, but nobody died).

On the other hand, Mohammed (please correct me if I'm wrong) taught that infidels (anyone that is not a Muslim) were to be converted, taxed, or killed with no remorse.

That's quite a difference in philosophy.

[DrGuitar]

Quote (John @ Feb. 03 2006,10:34)

On the other hand, Mohammed (please correct me if I’m wrong) taught that infidels (anyone that is not a Muslim) were to be converted, taxed, or killed with no remorse.

I don’t think that is actually the case John. I believe that bit of propaganda is essentially extremists twisting verse out the the Quran to serve their own purposes. I don’t think that we kill people for eating pork either even though there are references in the bible about such.

So I guess that my view of the cartoon is different than others view of the cartoon. I saw it as a “terrorists using Mohammad to incite murder” cartoon where as you saw it as “Mohammad backs up killing all infidels” cartoon. I can see where that would bring anger by non-terrorist Muslims.

As far as Jesus firing a scud at the ryder truck, that makes sense to me if you consider that Bush sells himself as a “born again” devout christian that talks regularly with God.

[BillClarke]

Depiction of the prophet is seriously offensive to Muslims, generally. Any editor of any major publication should know that (there was a movie several years ago that was accused of depicting the prophet and the Muslim reaction was predictably negative - so the precedent is clearly established). In light of that common knowledge, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that negative depictions of the prophet are likely to be even more controversial.

Do the Danish/French/German newspapers have the right to print these cartoons? Undeniably - freedom of the press.

Do they have the right to do so and not expect a backlash from members of the Muslim community? Sure - if they are incredibly stupid.

One can be ‘right’ and one can be ‘dead right’.

[John]

Didn’t take long to find these loving and tolerant words of Mohammed:

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Direct quotes from the Quran: 9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.” ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3) O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred… (8:65) Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve (8:55) "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush…" Sura 9:5 8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.” 47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.” 2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.” “Fight those who do not believe in Allah…And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah’s curse be on them; how they are turned away!” (Koran 9:29-30) And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39) When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5) etc, etc, etc…

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As far as Jesus firing a scud at the ryder truck, that makes sense to me if you consider that Bush sells himself as a “born again” devout christian that talks regularly with God.

If you insist on bringing partisan politics into this discussion, then we need to stop right now before it gets out of hand. If you’d like to compare facts that we may find, by all means let’s continue…



A true Christian follows the New Testament as a source of guidence. The New testament contains the words of Jesus, and you’re not gonna find Jesus advocating or encouraging violence anywhere in the text. The “Evil God” stuff is in the Old Testament, and many of the teachings from those writings are followed by the types of people that want to teach creationism in public schools. (if one of the active Christians in the forum would care to correct me, please do.)

On the other hand, the Koran contains the words of Mohammed (see above) and it isn’t very difficult to find the parts were he encourages violent (and gruesome!) acts against non-believers.

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I saw it as a “terrorists using Mohammad to incite murder” cartoon where as you saw it as “Mohammad backs up killing all infidels” cartoon.

Based on what I posted above, I’d say that both views are correct. Maybe someone could find the part in the Koran were Mohammed says “April fools! Let’s all just get along now! C’mon everybody - group hug!”

[John]

Quote (BillClarke @ Feb. 03 2006,14:55)

Do they have the right to do so and not expect a backlash from members of the Muslim community? Sure - if they are incredibly stupid. One can be 'right' and one can be 'dead right'.

I agree... the Muslims have every right to express their discontent in a civilized manner. They crossed the line (they? not the dreaded "they") when they threatend to turn to violence.

[TomS]

John, take the time to read the full passages. E.g., 2:190-193 (not just the often-quoted-out-of-context 191). They specify a theory of “just war” that only allows defensive actions, and which limits military violence to minimally necessary force against combatants only. It is, in effect, exactly the same “just war theory” as that advocated by the Pope following Aquinas.



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2.190": And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. “2.191”: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. “2.192”: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. “2.193”: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

When I read comments about Islam from Christians who paint with a broad brush and go fishing for bits and pieces that seem to make the case that Islam is violent, I think: here are ignorant people, here are people who will find what they want to find, here are people who believe they have a corner on the spirituality market, here are people who are contributing in their own small way to the misunderstandings and ignorance that fuel hatred and violence, here are people who are likely to support Bush, here are fundamentalists. Scratch a liberal Christian of this sort what what you will find underneath is a nervous fundamentalist.

The media is not helping - they are making is sound like the minority wackos are all of Islam. Sort of like judging Christians by Falwell or Pat Robertson.

And John you are wrong about what can be found in the New Testament. But I have yet to meet many Christains who really know their own religion, their own scriptures. People find in them what they want to find.

[TomS]

Quote (DrGuitar @ Feb. 03 2006,07:30)

Quote (TomS @ Feb. 03 2006,06:47) DrG, it is not a religiour war, any more than the conflict in Northern Ireland. .. The leaders use religion as a political tool. So we agree then? I think the cartoon was about your sentence exactly The leaders use religion as a political tool.

It doesn't really matter what it is really about because...
The leaders use religion as a political tool.

It doesn't matter what I think or you think. All that matters is that...

The leaders use religion as a political tool.
DrG, I say this sincerely, and in a friendly tone of voice - that was an excellent reply. Made me chuckle (in the best sense).

But it does matter what the underlying causes are. If enough people can be made to understand the underlying dynamics, then those who try to sell the conflict as religious will fail - and people like teej and John won't be fooled into a false and ignorant understanding of other people's spiritualities that serves the needs of the violent, greedy, grasping people of this world (including G. W. Bush and company).

[TomS]

A religion of love:

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From the February 2 edition of Fox News’ Hannity & Colmes: COLMES: Should Chavez be assassinated? ROBERTSON: Well, one day he’s going to be aiming nuclear weapons; and what’s coming across the Gulf isn’t going to be Katrina, it’s going to be his nukes. COLMES: Would you feel better going back to the original comment that if he were assassinated, the world would be a safer place? ROBERTSON: I think South America would. He is – he is – got hit squads. He’s a very dangerous man. COLMES: So, you’re not taking back the comment. You believe assassination of Hugo Chavez would be in the best interests of the world. ROBERTSON: Well, rather than going to war. One day, we’re going to have to go to war, I’m afraid, if he continues his policy, you know. But, I don’t know. I wrote him a letter. I apologized to him. COLMES: But, wait a minute. If you say you apologized to him, what you just said seems to contravene that, because you just now said – ROBERTSON: I know. I know. COLMES: – you think it’d be better if he be assassinated. ROBERTSON: Alan, the whole thing we’ve got to deal with is that, one day, if he continues his course of trying to mobilize Marxist powers in South America, it’s going to be a clear – COLMES: He’s very popular with his country. ROBERTSON: Well, yes and no. But he does – HANNITY: He’s building up weapons against the United States, isn’t he? COLMES: He’s extremely popular. Eighty-percent of his country – ROBERTSON: He’s also calling for the destruction of George Bush. He calls him a war criminal. COLMES: Do you want him taken out? ROBERTSON: Not now, but one day, one day, one day. My premise is, and I think as – you know, until that comment came out, everybody thought Chavez [added link] was a fellow having to do with table grapes in California. Now – HANNITY: I think one thing we could say is, the world would be better off without him where he is, because he is a danger to the United States. ROBERTSON: Extreme danger.

Sorry teej, I know you are a good guy, but what if we all took Robertson as representative of Christians? This is the second time he has said that assassination is a good idea.

[MidnightToker]

I believe the cartoon was a depiction of Mohammed with a turban that looked like a bomb. In any event, it was shameful & the newspapers should NOT have done it! This is the last thing that we need now in our relations with the Muslim world. Of course, Muslims will over-react to it but we should have anticipated that.

[Bubbagump]

Sigh… As with anything… it is really easy to be afraid, point fingers, and stereo type people you don’t know. My Muslim frinds have never gone into a mall with bomb vests on, none of my Jewish friends work in banks, and I can’t think of a Christian friend of mine who has burned any witches lately. I would hope as Christians folks woul drealize how easy it is to be rolled into a stereo type as it might be for some butt pain Muslims to make a whol religion look bad.

And to John/TomS point, there are plenty of places in the Bible that say to hang folks from trees for not believing and there are folks who twist the Bible to their ends as much as they Qur’an is twisted to the ends of those in the Muslim world. You say that the New Testement is what Christians should pull from, well, to an outsider who wasn’t raised in the Church, it would be all to easy to take snippets from the Bible to charaterize Christians after they bombed your wedding party with F15s. I see many in the West doing the same in reverse. This is the same sort of thing as folks who claim that Catholics worship saints and know nothing of the concept of intercession. Or you could say Christians worship 3 gods and you yourself have no real knowledge of the trinity.

All this to say, I don’t really care about the whole cartoon thing, but it makes me nuts when people paint with wide strokes based on half truths and Google 2 second searches. To understand a religion is quite an undertaking as it is culture at the foundation of it all and a culture is not undertood from the outside in most cases…

[DrGuitar]

Quote (Mr Soul @ Feb. 03 2006,17:33)

I believe the cartoon was a depiction of Mohammed with a turban that looked like a bomb. In any event, it was shameful & the newspapers should NOT have done it! This is the last thing that we need now in our relations with the Muslim world. Of course, Muslims will over-react to it but we should have anticipated that.

Actually, here is the cartoon in question.

I'm curious about this crowd. If you lived near a known militia that regularly killed people at random and had information on this militia, wuold you help officials find that group so that the terrorism could stop? Or would you just mind your own business and allow that militia to continue to kill anyone from foreigners to your own countrymen. And if said militia was keeping your own country from finding peace, whould you support it?

Sure, the cartoon was a slap in the face of good and bad Muslims. But I have to wonder why the good Muslims allow this to take place in their neighborhoods without lifting a finger. Is it because they support the terrorists on some level? I personally don't know, but cartoons like this one are a wake up call to those Muslims that understand that the religious-driven terror are undermining the status of the Islamic religion in the world.

[system]

Well shoot… Bubba’s talkin’ sense here. I WAS going to stay outta this one but here goes. I’ll keep it short. “Religion” is a dirty word. I am a Christian but sometimes I am ashamed of “religion”.

There ya’ go…

D

[MidnightToker]

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But I have to wonder why the good Muslims allow this to take place in their neighborhoods without lifting a finger. Is it because they support the terrorists on some level?

I think Muslims in general feel oppressed by the West. I think most of them are peace loving people but many feel it’s OK to do violence if they are defending themselves. I don’t think they consider the terrorists to be terrorists like we do, i.e., they consider them soldiers fighting a just war. Now when they blow up other Muslims, I’m not sure why they allow this, perhaps out of fear?

Also, I don’t think all the Muslim religious leaders condemn terrorism as much as they could, although I’m sure some do.

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I personally don’t know, but cartoons like this one are a wake up call to those Muslims that understand that the religious-driven terror are undermining the status of the Islamic religion in the world.

Listen - we’ve got “Christians” that go around killing doctors that perform abortions. We’ve got right-wingers that blow up Federal buildings. Sure we don’t have as many but they are still fanatics no less.

And don’t forget - during the Revolutionary War we were the terrorists. And don’t forget about all the native Indians that were killed in cold blood. And don’t forget about all the Africans that were rounded up like cattle & brought over in slave ships to a God-fearing nation. That was only +100 years ago. And don’t forget when lynchings were common - that was only about 30 - 40 years ago.

[system]

Quote (DrGuitar @ Feb. 02 2006,15:27)

The “Jesus in piss” portrayal is just a single persons “art”. And as John so clearly pointed out, those offended are ready to kill because of their displeasure.

Well then they are not following the Father I have come to know.
Forgive, turn the other cheek.
I would pray for such a person, both the artist and misguided Christian. The artist will have to take that up with His creator, as will the Christian who is unable to forgive.




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Tom…unregistered" But I have yet to meet many Christains who really know their own religion, their own scriptures. "

Either you don’t get out much, or you haven’t really looked around. But seriously I have found the same thing amongst the established Christian community. Jesus tries to explain things to us in a physical world, but He is speaking of spiritual things. Our minds cannot fathom spiritual things unless guided by the Holy Spirit. It seems quite the opposite Tom.
Meaning,
I have met many people who really know their own scriptures, inside and out memorized back to front.
Only one problem, they don’t understand the meaning, and message given in them.
The message of Love, compassion, and tolerance.


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Tom…unregistered "People find in them what they want to find."

According to the scripture you aren’t supposed to find anything. So anyone trying to do so is only fooling themselves.
The wisdom that surpases all understanding is given to whom He chooses. Just as grace is given. We do not choose Him, He chooses us. Not by works but by grace we are saved.

keep shinin’

jerm

[TomS]

Jeremy, let’s test your hypothesis that I don’t get out much. Here are a couple of questions:

How did Judas die?
Which gospel was written first?
What is the earliest manuscript of any of the texts in the NT?
When was “the” Bible written? (OK, that one is not fair).
Is there a single Bible for all Christians?
How does the usual Christian translation of the first words of Genesis relate to the fourth gospel? What is a literal translation of the first part of the first creation story in Genesis? How many creation stories are there in the Bible?

I could keep asking, but you get the point.

Now, answer fair, and don’t go look up the answers.



Bubba, that is exactly the point I was trying to make. I get really, really upset when people of whatever faith come along and make a negative stereotype about some other tradition, in a way that only serves to reinforce a negative and very harmful stereotype, so we can feel good about killing them. Islam is on the whole as much a religion of peace as is Christianity on the whole, or Judaism, or pretty much any other tradition.

[DrGuitar]

Mr Soul makes a great point, just because some of us have “moved on” and no longer consider violence a just means, does not mean that others feel the same way. As a race of humans, we are very young and very immature. Dinosaurs lived millions of years, we have been around for thousands. It is no wonder that we cannot seem to see that violence is never justified. And violence under the guise of religion is even more insidious. Obviously, not every one saw what I saw in that cartoon. I saw it as a view of what the terrorists are selling; that Muhammad wants you to kill. I personally do not believe that the teachings of Muhammad espouse killing, I just think that the terrorists are using this ruse as a tool for increased violence.

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Bubba, that is exactly the point I was trying to make. I get really, really upset when people of whatever faith come along and make a negative stereotype about some other tradition, in a way that only serves to reinforce a negative and very harmful stereotype, so we can feel good about killing them. Islam is on the whole as much a religion of peace as is Christianity on the whole, or Judaism, or pretty much any other tradition.

Actually, most organized religions historically have found ways to kill those that differ in their concept of God. The only religion I know of that specifically bans killing and war as part of their tenents are the Quakers. But I agree Tom, negatively pointing fingers at another religion just divides us as human partners on this planet and does no one justice. But yet again, we have taken an editorial comic a bit too far don’t you think? There are plenty of editorial comics that make a point about Bush and his relationship (or lack of) with God and we don’t kill people for that do we?
Personally, I find this cartoon offensive on so many levels, but I understand where the artist was coming from and I do not believe he/she should die for it.

[MidnightToker]

There are 2 creation stories in Genesis with different orders of events (written by different people).

The first G written was about 40 years after Christ’s death and the last one 100 years.

Did I get anything right???

[system]

Quote (TomS @ Feb. 04 2006,09:14)

Jeremy, let’s test your hypothesis that I don’t get out much. Here are a couple of questions: How did Judas die? Which gospel was written first? What is the earliest manuscript of any of the texts in the NT? When was “the” Bible written? (OK, that one is not fair). Is there a single Bible for all Christians? How does the usual Christian translation of the first words of Genesis relate to the fourth gospel? What is a literal translation of the first part of the first creation story in Genesis? How many creation stories are there in the Bible? I could keep asking, but you get the point. Now, answer fair, and don’t go look up the answers.

The comment about you not getting out much was meant as a joke…hence the tounge icon. I’m sorry if you received it any
other way.

I have not claimed to know the scripture, as I stated, “I have met many who have”.–yet they lack understanding…

It’s funny that you would bring up Judas though.
We were just dicussing him in a debate at Bible study two weeks ago.
It was said…“the son of predition” could not be saved. because of His betrayall of Christ.
But I disagreed. It was a dirty job, but someone had to do it.
Jesus paid the price for ALL our sins…so to say that there is an unforgivable sin, seems to undermind the belief.
Much was said but no opinions were changed.
No-one is going to convince me that there is a sin the blood of Jesus cannot give atonement for.
I asked for the scriptural proof that Judas could not receive salvation, but none was found or given. I guess it’s like you said, people find/beleive what they want.
According to the movie, “Passion of the Christ”…Judas hung himself. I did find other things in that movie that didn’t match scriptural accounts so, I don’t put much stock in it’s depiction.
I have seen documentries on the “Life of Christ” and how his carpentry was more like massionary work, which makes the depiction in said move…the tabel scene, kinda inacurate.
Again I do not make any claims to know the scripture’s in any detail. I am as student, and will be for life.



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How does the usual Christian translation of the first words of Genesis relate to the fourth gospel?

I know the begining of John talks about creation and there is an important insite when God says…“we” and “our image”, from Genesis.
In my studies it has become evident that the “we” is God and Jesus. And Jesus is the “Word” and the “The Word” is God. The word became flesh…and here is something I’m currently studying… God is Jesus. Jesus is God made flesh, the Word and God are one, hence Jesus and God are one. He calls Jesus the son of God, again becasue He is trying to explain a spiritual thing to us who live in the physical realm.
The law was given to Moses, but grace and truth was given by Christ.

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What is the earliest manuscript of any of the texts in the NT?

I really don’t see the relevancy to knowing the scripture by it’s “man made” timeline.
God’s word is everlasting. History has a history of being proven wrong. Authough these things are interesting for those who pursue knowlege of the earth, not really a prerequisite for those who seek knowlege from above.

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What is a literal translation of the first part of the first creation story in Genesis?

I wouldn’t attempt to make a literal translation fo any part of the Bible. It is what it is. It can be interprited many different ways for many different people depending on "“their” relationship with God.
Even if I told you, my translation, it’s wouldn’t make it a correct on for you. Testing my understanding of something you already feel you understand enough to test someone else on only shows that you either have a preset interpretation, hance making anyone elses wrong, or you truly are seeking the answer. If it be the latter I cannot give you what you seek, only He can.
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How many creation stories are there in the Bible?

That’s a good question, I sure with many different answers depending on who you ask…
But what that has to do with understanding God’s love…not shure. And truthfully, that is my only interest when reading the Bible. I pray the Holy Spirit will give me understanding and open the eyes to my heart to recieve His blessing of Peace, and Love that only can come from Him. I’m not a scolar, nor do I seek to prove or disprove parts of the Bible. I read His Word, because I enjoy it, and His words uplift my soul. It feeds my hunger.
His word is the water to quence the soul’s thirst. If we do not drink than like a flower we will wither. There are a couple of people in my Bible study who enjoy the theology behind the Bible, and the other gospels…the one of “Mary” ect. But for me, knowing His word is true, and faithful, and that I am sancitified by His sacrifice, is enough.
I know I am a sinner, and the price is paid.
I know my good deeds are like fithly rags to my Father.
I know only His love is everlasting, and only His love can give us eternal life.
He gave the world a gift. We either recieve it or don’t.
All other knowlege puffeth up.

keep shinin’

jerm

[BillClarke]

Quote (John @ Feb. 03 2006,16:23)

I agree... the Muslims have every right to express their discontent in a civilized manner. They crossed the line (they? not the dreaded "they") when they threatend to turn to violence.

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone had a 'right' to turn to violence but rather that it would be naive to not anticipate that some would.