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n-Track Studio Discussion Forum
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Quote (Gizmo @ Nov. 23 2006,16:28)
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…and it is a non-chaotic place


That’s what Einstein said, and he spent the remainder of his life trying to prove it, and died with it still unproved.

Isn’t chaos and unpredictability on the microscopic level now accepted by science? (not becasue that’s the way it seems, but because that’s the way it is).

Or do gods only concern themselves with stuff big enough to really get your paws on? :D

Ah yes, Chaos Theory. God playing dice with the Universe.

But you’ve hit on the nub of the issue: gods (like us) need only concern themselves with stuff big enough to get their paws on since what happens on the microscopic level is immaterial so long as order and predictability continue to function on our level of reality.

So yes, it is theoretically possible that all of the molecules of oxygen in the room in which you are sitting could concentrate themselves into one corner and you could asphyxiate. But I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it; it has thus far never happened and, I am betting, never will. The Universe remains knowable and predictable; God is in His heaven… etc.
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Quote (KingFish @ Nov. 23 2006,18:24)
Sounds like the description of “The Force” in Star Wars!

KF

As Joseph Campbell and Robert Bly have shown us - myths can be powerful things.

Personally, I think it is a limited intelligence that requires truth to be literal in order to see the truth in a thing. Or, to paraphrase my Irish Grandfather, never let truth stand in the way of a good story.
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Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 23 2006,04:30)
As Joseph Campbell and Robert Bly have shown us - myths can be powerful things.

Personally, I think it is a limited intelligence that requires truth to be literal in order to see the truth in a thing. Or, to paraphrase my Irish Grandfather, never let truth stand in the way of a good story.

I suggested Joseph Campbell on the forum before. Before I came across him I thought I was alone in the cosmos with some of my beliefs. I haven’t read Bly. What’s his story?

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never let truth stand in the way of a good story…


Sounds like the Republican Party Motto!

KF
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Quote (KingFish @ Nov. 23 2006,19:07)
I suggested Joseph Campbell on the forum before. Before I came across him I thought I was alone in the cosmos with some of my beliefs. I haven’t read Bly. What’s his story?

Robert Bly is an American poet. in his work: Iron John: A Book About Men he argues (successfully, in my view) for the power of myth as an avenue to greater understanding.

If you’ve read Campbell, you don’t need me to laud his brilliance.

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never let truth stand in the way of a good story…

Quote (KingFish @ Nov. 23 2006,19:07)
Sounds like the Republican Party Motto!

KF


Could be, but I’m convinced it is the National Motto of Ireland.
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Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 23 2006,09:01)
Seek ye the Divine? It cannot not be found.

Yeah this has gotten me into quite the debackle with the Christian crowd…or mob should I say.

I was at a Christian forum the other day, and I saw a thread for Satanism…so me being the advid instigator I am, created a thread about Jesusism…
Well, needless to say all he.l.l. broke loose! :angry:
Anyway from what I presented about Jesusism I caught much flack over their part about them not relying on the divinity of Jesus for His words to have significance. (that being based on my limited knowledge of the subject)
It seems that these “Christians” rely on the divinity of Christ to save them. Not that they would have to follow His teachings or anything, but just believe in His divinity and be saved… ???

Needless to say I am a heretic, blasphemer, and false prophet (since my stage name is Jeremy Prophet after Washingtons most famous slave)

Yeah so what else is new, a stranger in my own land I guess.

Yeah didn’t Jesus say something about a prophet without honor?

Anywho…
Happy Thanksgivin’ people, hopefully all your food digest in a timley manner.

Keep shinin’

jerm :cool:
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Quote (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 23 2006,19:28)
It seems that these "Christians" rely on the divinity of Christ to save them. Not that they would have to follow His teachings or anything, but just believe in His divinity and be saved...

That's the rub, isn't it?

"I am saved by the blood of Christ.." says the fundamentalist Christian. "I am born again."

Really? Doesn't that require you to be somehow different?

"The Christ within me will direct the changes I need."

Oh, so you really aren't part of this equation, are you? Jesus says, Jesus does - it really isn't about you at all, is it?

"Salvation is about faith, not about deeds."

Then why did Jesus command us to love one another? Faith isn't even part of that command - it is a call to action: LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

"You would understand if you were saved."

Sure I would. And if pigs had wings they would fly; but they'd still be funny looking birds.
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Thanks for responding Bill, it’s nice to know that my off the wall comments don’t always go unnoticed. :)

Anyway, pardon me for typing slowly, but too much turkey sure slows a man down. :D

But no, I don’t know much about science or what hypothetical realities are, but I earn my living from a reality that most of us experience.

If you set up a sound reinforcement system in an auditorium using just god’s inverse square law, then you’re screwed.

You fail in your job, and you don’t get hired again.

Because there’s another factor, a factor that’s approximately a linear one, one that’s due to attenuation due to losses due to the random motion of air molecules and tobacco bits.

Sure, we approximate it to a linear function, but at its heart lies random, chaotic motion, and an engineer ignores it at his cost. It ain’t following god’s rules, it’s rule of thumb, sniff the air and take a guess.

Noise in electric circuits: Largely due to the random thermal agitation within those circuits.

God may be able to ignore those random chaotic things, but I make my living by hard cash and customer satisfaction, so I can’t.

So how about another definition of god:

In an infinite chaotic universe, everything that maybe, is somewhere or somewhen.

But in this little corner, we manage OK without, thank you. :D

And if it’s a finite universe, then we’ll give the benefit of the doubt (Hey, I make almost half my income from churches after all! :laugh: )

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Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 23 2006,19:28)

"The Christ within me will direct the changes I need."


Well that may be partly true. I mean it seems the God “Spirit”, for lack of a better word,can direct us, although I call it a nudge, as to what behaviors or attitudes to refrain from, but ultimately it is up to us wether or not we listen to that direction.

Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 23 2006,19:28)

"Salvation is about faith, not about deeds."

Then why did Jesus command us to love one another? Faith isn’t even part of that command - it is a call to action: LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

He did sum up all the Law and the Prophets with that one.

Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 23 2006,19:28)

"You would understand if you were saved."

Sure I would. And if pigs had wings they would fly; but they’d still be funny looking birds.

That sounds like a cop out to me. Like "as long as I’m saved I can pretty much do what I want"

And if you tell them otherwise you are suggesting that it is by works that they be saved. (thanks to Paul for most of that doctrine)
When I read what Jesus said about works it had to do with helping people and such, not with our own effort to refrain from sin, and love each other dispite our differences in beliefs.

Yeah I opened another can of worms on that Christian forum when I answered anothers question about the warning of Christ in Matthew24.
Jesus clearly says not to believe anyone coming and saying they are Him in the desert. Which pretty much described Sauls account.
My contention was the though out the Old Testament God never appears to a man of sin (like Saul was) unless previously prophesied by a man of God, Like Daniel with Nebaccenezar.
I just offered the challenged of someone finding another account like Sauls that would show God’s character being consistent with that event.

Needless to say, I’m not too popular there anymore either! :;):

And people are pretty mad at me, since for the life of them they can’t find God’s character as being consistent with Sauls account… AND THAT’S MY FAULT! lol

Sorry for borrowing your theory…but I did want to see how Christians would react to it and what type of argument they would present, especially since most of my freinds and family are Christians.

keep shinin’

jerm
:cool:
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Quote (Gizmo @ Nov. 23 2006,20:14)
Thanks for responding Bill, it's nice to know that my off the wall comments don't always go unnoticed. :)

Anyway, pardon me for typing slowly, but too much turkey sure slows a man down. :D

But no, I don't know much about science or what hypothetical realities are, but I earn my living from a reality that most of us experience.

If you set up a sound reinforcement system in an auditorium using just god's inverse square law, then you're screwed.

You fail in your job, and you don't get hired again.

Because there's another factor, a factor that's approximately a linear one, one that's due to attenuation due to losses due to the random motion of air molecules and tobacco bits.

Sure, we approximate it to a linear function, but at its heart lies random, chaotic motion, and an engineer ignores it at his cost. It ain't following god's rules, it's rule of thumb, sniff the air and take a guess.

Noise in electric circuits: Largely due to the random thermal agitation within those circuits.

God may be able to ignore those random chaotic things, but I make my living by hard cash and customer satisfaction, so I can't.

So how about another definition of god:

In an infinite chaotic universe, everything that maybe, is somewhere or somewhen.

But in this little corner, we manage OK without, thank you. :D

And if it's a finite universe, then we'll give the benefit of the doubt (Hey, I make almost half my income from churches after all! :laugh: )

Well, apparently you are still employed so there must be some certain amount of predictability in what you do and the performance of your duties. I'll take my solice in that.

And hey, we are ALL somewhere or somewhen. It's the nature of the beast.

I forgot that it was American Thanksgiving - Happy Turkey Day to you and yours.
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Quote (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 23 2006,20:33)
Yeah I opened another can of worms on that Christian forum when I answered anothers question about the warning of Christ in Matthew24.
Jesus clearly says not to believe anyone coming and saying they are Him in the desert. Which pretty much described Sauls account.
My contention was the though out the Old Testament God never appears to a man of sin (like Saul was) unless previously prophesied by a man of God, Like Daniel with Nebaccenezar.
I just offered the challenged of someone finding another account like Sauls that would show God's character being consistent with that event.

Needless to say, I'm not too popular there anymore either! :;):

And people are pretty mad at me, since for the life of them they can't find God's character as being consistent with Sauls account... AND THAT'S MY FAULT! lol

Sorry for borrowing your theory...but I did want to see how Christians would react to it and what type of argument they would present, especially since most of my freinds and family are Christians.

Well, you're still popular around here Jeremy - never fear.
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I forgot that it was American Thanksgiving - Happy Turkey Day to you and yours.


Thanks Bill. I don’t know if slavery is still in effect in Canada or not, but I’ve 9 screaming grandchildren who are going for 20 bucks a piece.

I’d pay more, but I’m broke at present. :D
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Quote (Gizmo @ Nov. 23 2006,21:16)
I don't know if slavery is still in effect in Canada or not, but I've 9 screaming grandchildren who are going for 20 bucks a piece.

I'd pay more, but I'm broke at present.

Slavery is legal in Canada, it's just called Civil Service.

Fortunately, after twenty years of servitude, I found a ticket on the Underground Railroad. Ironically, it mostly takes me to the United States.

Life imitates art or art imitates life? I never could keep that straight.
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Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 23 2006,20:11)
Well, you’re still popular around here Jeremy - never fear.

:D :D :D

You know what I found as odd at least here in the states.

All year those poor turkey farmers feed and maintain those birds, just for that one day out of the year to actually sell them and try and make a profit.

I mean who eats a turkey on the other 364 days of the year? :p

Well there is cold cuts of turkey…but other than that I’m hard pressed to know how they stay in business.

God Bless those guys, that’s alot of cluck for a little buck.


keep shinin’

jerm :cool:
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Quote (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 23 2006,22:06)
You know what I found as odd at least here in the states.

All year those poor turkey farmers feed and maintain those birds, just for that one day out of the year to actually sell them and try and make a profit.

I mean who eats a turkey on the other 364 days of the year? :p

Well there is cold cuts of turkey...but other than that I'm hard pressed to know how they stay in business.

God Bless those guys, that's alot of cluck for a little buck.

Not too far from here there are several very large "Turkey Ranches" (for lack of a better term).

I mean large - huge long two-storey housing units where, I presume, the birds are raised (because I never see any running around the grounds). These ranches aren't privately owned by individual farmers but are corporately-owned and presumably make sufficient profit to justify what must be a considerable investment of capital.
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Turkey farming is a HUGE business. Turkey is showing up everywhere. Apparently, the health food nuts replace all kinds of red meat with processed turkey. My mother in-law has taken to making her world famous spaghetti with wheat noodles (blech) and turkey beef instead of good ground chuck. Also BLECH! :D

Don’t tell her though… a man’s got to eat something!

She feeds the grand kids turkey hot dogs, turkey bologna, turkey this, turkey that. %#^& little gobblers!

D

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All year those poor turkey farmers feed and maintain those birds, just for that one day out of the year to actually sell them and try and make a profit.

I mean who eats a turkey on the other 364 days of the year?

Well there is cold cuts of turkey…but other than that I’m hard pressed to know how they stay in business.


Jeremy, it’s been said before, but it obviously needs saying again: You’re an idiot.

If you’d read Bill’s post you would’ve seen that in Canada they celebrate Thanksgiving on a different date.

And I know that the Greeks celebrate Easter on a different date, and the Mexicans celebrate Independence day in May, and the Chinese celebrate New Year in February, and the Australians celebrate Christmas some time in the summer.

And I expect that all the holidays; Christmas, Thanksgiving, Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Day, all of them, are all celebrated on different dates in different countries.

They do that I guess so that people who make fireworks and turkeys and stuff have a steady consumer market throughout the year. And that makes sense.



Does anyone know if American troops in Iraq celebrate Christmas on the same date as the Iraqis or do they do it on the same day as us?

I guess they must celebrate it on the same date as the Iraqis, they wouldn’t be able to buy turkeys and trees and stuff otherwise.

And I guess it would be very rude if the US soldiers carried on working while all the Iraqis were sitting down to a turkey and ham dinner.

So anyone know which date the Iraq Christmas is? It’d be nice to send the guys some cards at the right time of year for them.
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Now that I think about it,
I do like turkey bacon and turckey ham since I don’t eat pork.

gobble gobble,

jerm :cool:

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I, personally, like to have a turkey dinner at least once a month. It’s cheap, and you get soup a day or two later. That’s the best part. I don’t know wny people limit themselves to the holidays. Rest of the time they eat - what? - macaroni or some crap like that? :)

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wild turkey is really good eatin,but i spoose the city dwellers will never know cause theyre too busy shootin eachother(unless a good movie is on that night)but hey ,ya gotta tell grandma that sometimes the turkey bought at a store had more fat in then some of the pork does,so it pays to compare,just cause its turkey dosent mean its leaner then anything else on the shelf

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Quote (Diogenes @ Nov. 14 2006,17:40)
Anyway, BillC, if in 70, then shouldn't a few things have happened since then? All that apocalyptic stuff?


I'm curious too Bill. Surely John did not believe Revelation was simply the Fall of Jerusalem and not the whole world? I mean at that point (in history) they did have an idea of locations outside of their own little piece of dirt right?

D -- being open minded... :)
Actually, I'm not so sure they did. Certainly, some people must have been aware that there were people who lived in far-away lands. But I am pretty sure that much of the world believed that the Earth was flat and that the Sun and the "heavens" revolved around the Earth.

Seems to me that predicting the end of the world (as we know it) is a silly effort at least and possibly a dangerous effort. If you get the leaders of the world following such thought, it can easily become a self-fullfilling prophecy.

Seems to me that there are many people counting on the end of the world coming soon.

As a funny side note, a couple of Jehovah witness folks came to my home the other day to "speak" to me and hand me a pamphlet about the "good news". I told them right away that I was not interested but that I would like to know when they are predicting the end of the world now. One of them shot back that they never have done that. I disagreed and said that I knew for a fact that in the past, they have set dates and that all of them have come and gone. So all I really wanted to know was, "when is the current date for the end of the world?" I then expressed how I thought that trying to use fear as a tool for recruitment was plain wrong. And they said that the end of the world will be a wonderful occasion.

I think we were looking at two different sides of the same coin.

Anyone know when the end of the world is supposed to come according to the Jehovah witnesses?