re: Jeremy
Jerm - thought this would be a good seperate thread - hope you don’t mind
You said -
Quote:
Hey there is a question I have been meaning to ask…and rather than start a thread for it it fits here…
Let’s say I have real acoustic live drum tracks and I want to turn them into MIDI files so that I can sync them up with FX sequences…
Is that possible with N an and possibly another converter utility?
Perhaps if I describe the end game the answer will better suite the entire query.
I am wanting to use a Digitech GNX4 pedal (huge midi learning curve here) to sequence live FX, I just got tired of all those pedals and having to hit them while singing at specific times in the songs.
According to the manual you can create a midi file that will change the FX at certain points in the song.
I am using backing tracks, which are live drum tracks but they are in mp3 format, that is why I am wanting to convert them to Midi and save them as one file with the FX sequences.
Also I am wanting to created a midi click track to send to one channel (r or l) so that I can use an earpiece to listen to the tempo so that I do not loose it during the silent parts of the drum tracks.
My thought was to put the click on the left and drums on the right and only send the right to the PA and left to the earpiece.
The hurdle I think I have to get over is how to convert my backing tracks to Midi so that I can put them into a proper organization to all sync together.
I also have X-Edit and Pro-Tracks plus that came with the GNX4 so perhaps that would be best to try all this in?
keep shinin
jerm
For God so loved the world, so should we.
Music: http://jeremy.awardpsace.com
Blogs: <a href="http://www.myspace.com/jeremyprophet
It seems possible to use N-drums (since it is basically a multi sampler that can
be triggered by midi)
But the way I see it - you would be taking sections of a live drum recording
and assigning them to individual pads in N-drums. And then creating midi patterns
of the samples, and then triggering those patterns with N-drums.
As I recall - you trigger the patterns with a midi track that outputs to
channel 16.
Do you see? You would not be converting .wav or mp3 to midi. Instead you would
use midi to trigger patterns of .wav samples that you put together either by slicing
your .wav track into smaller sections and loading into the trigger pads of N-drums
I’m sure others will way in on this.
this one is FREE -
download this VST plugin -
http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/download.asp?ID=80
NAVIGATE to Ns vst folder - insert new folder called DRUM TRIGGER - unzip download and extract contents to drum trigger folder - manual is in PDF format - you WILL need acrobat reader to view it -
insert audio drum track - add drum trigger as a VST effect -
insert blank MIDI track - output MIDI track to NTD - (ignore any ticks in output box - MIDI track MUST go to NTD) -
you will need the patience of a Bibical character to get this plugin to work BUT IT DOES WORK - the drum replacer has 22 channel strips (22 drums) of which only three are displayed at a time and on first use only the first channel is on - each strip has an ON/OFF display switch - FIRST SHOWN CHANNEL selects which three channels are in veiw -
things to look out for - AUDIO STATE- switch to OFF to prevent audio being output - all you want to hear is NTD -
the MIDI note that is generated from the audio track is set by the DRUM TO MIDI NOTE BOX slider -
in NTD each pad has a MIDI note trigger number - this number has to match up with the number in the drum trigger strip in use - (in NTD) click on the E next to drum pad you want to use - look for three display boxs LOW / CENTRE / HIGH - the centre box is the MIDI note trigger for that pad - set the drum trigger slider in drum trigger to that number -
by playing around with the settings you can create totally different drum rifs
from what the audio is actually playing -
OK but all of this is useless unless you can record the MIDI out to use again - when you get the drum trigger set up correctly - hit RECORD on the MIDI track and the notes generated by the trigger will be recorded into the MIDI track in real time - use piano roll to tidy things up then delete audio track and export MIDI track for further use - FUN OR WHAT ?
M.R.
Sorry to thread Jack,
this thread was Titled midi drums I did not know that does not encompass real live drums (either drummed on a Midi set or recorded analog and converted to midi).
IT is a great thread none the less and I will be reading it in entirety and learning all I can about this whole midi thing and how I can utilize it from the device I have and live performance.(mostly FX triggering/sequencing for guitar)
Thank you Poppa for the plug, if I may I have one remaining question.
Also thanks to seven for suggesting other ways I could “trigger” various samples as you call them, I like that idea, in case I get into a certain groove on the live performance and want to vamp on a particular part. that is stray away from the backing track, or even add more to the end, extend the song…
Thanks also Rabbit for all the shared info and plugs I can use as many free midi utilities as I can use, this midi stuff is not cheap.
If I recorded a track in wav. to a 120 BPM click, then converted it to Midi would it still remain in 120 BPM with no alignment issues?
I see Rabbit, that you have suggested a way to “record” the track into Midi in real time, just wondering if there is some kind of problem with just converting the whole track into midi, and why the “recording of it in real time” would be necessary.
Again apologies for thread jacking, I guess another midi drum thread is in order since my questions seems to stray away from “midi drum sequencing” and into midi general.
I am hoping tho, that I can utilize what is said here to “sequence” the things that I do need sequences, which is at this time guitar FX, hopefully the principles are the same for various instruments.
keep shinin
jerm
How can you jack a thread titled: Topic: Drums to Midi, re: Jeremy
To answer your question - I don’t know - I’ve never tried it.
I honestly have no idea what you are attempting or want to try to do with midi.
midi is not magic - it just does what it’s told to do.
Anyway - I’m still confused as to your goal with midi.
Quote: (Poppa Willis @ Feb. 07 2009, 9:21 AM)
How can you jack a thread titled: Topic: Drums to Midi, re: Jeremy
Yeah how did you do that? I do not see the original thread anymore....
Quote: (Poppa Willis @ Feb. 07 2009, 9:21 AM)
To answer your question - I don't know - I've never tried it.
I honestly have no idea what you are attempting or want to try to do with midi.
midi is not magic - it just does what it's told to do.
Anyway - I'm still confused as to your goal with midi.
Well basically I am using Midi to sequence Guitar FX with the Digitech GNX4 (link left in other post).
Also to playback MIDI files (backing drum and bass tracks).
The idea is that I do not have to have a huge rack of foot pedals and have to hit them all at different times in the song. (while singing very difficult)
The device uses Midi to trigger each effect at the right time in the song.
My hurdle for this is I am wanting to also use the backing drum tracks that are currently in wav. format. (which the device will play)
The only reason why I am wanting them to remain in the original BPM is because the device also records, which I may want to record the live performances and bring them back to the PC.
That is why I need to know if all these conversions are going to stay in timing, the first being wav. to midi, then the device records in wav. which I would want to bring back into Ntrack to line up with the original file.
If the midi file I am using as the backing track does not keep its timing that it had as a wav. the resulting live recording would also not be in timing with the original Ntrack sng. file.
It would be nice to say "recorded live at this church, or coffee shop" on a track.
Then there is the issue of having "silent" parts of the backing track, that I would need to remain in timing for when the backing track comes back in.
I have thought of panning the backing track to the right and sending that out mono to the PA, while panning a separate click to the right and sending that to an earpiece.
The only down side to this is that the stereo drum track (with toms going left to right) would loose its ability to sound that way.
My device has some sort of Split mode, which I am trying to figure out that may solve this problem.
I also thought that maybe there is another device like a motu or something that I could use to monitor a click to stay in timing with the Midi backing tracks during the silent parts?
keep shinin
jerm
very ambitious… gulluck!
Aim for the stars if you are lucky you will hit the horizon. 
keep shinin
jerm
I did some similar stuff a number of years back Jerm, but the difference was I started with MIDI drum tracks.
Before you get too excited about tempo etc, I’d try converting those drum tracks. I for one remain sceptical - in a similar way that I remain sceptical about being able to un-mix paint colours.
It’s quite a tall order to ask any software to distinguish different drums that may be played at the same time. For example, you may have a kick, snare and hi-hat beat all happening at the same time and you’re gonna want those split out into 3 midi notes. Now imagine that this is happening a few millseconds after hitting a crash cymbal - that you don’t want to trigger again - and you’ve got a much more complex problem. Now consider different timbres of drum hits, different volumes, open-close hi-hat beats, flams, ghost notes…
If you have separate tracks for each drum then things are different and there are quite a few ways of finding the hits and triggering midi.
I think your time might be better off re-programming your drum tracks (you can use the mp3s as a starting point), or even to try some readily available ones.
Anyway, I hope I’m wrong and that it all works for you.
Your basic idea will work though. I used an Atari computer (wow, was it that long ago?), to play my midi tracks, to switch reverb & echo on my mixer, drum patches, and guitar effects.
As PW said, g’luck.
Quote: (Mark A @ Feb. 08 2009, 3:33 AM)
I did some similar stuff a number of years back Jerm, but the difference was I started with MIDI drum tracks.
Before you get too excited about tempo etc, I'd try converting those drum tracks.
I for one remain sceptical - in a similar way that I remain sceptical about being able to un-mix paint colours.
It's quite a tall order to ask any software to distinguish different drums that may be played at the same time.
For example, you may have a kick, snare and hi-hat beat all happening at the same time and you're gonna want those split out into 3 midi notes.
Now imagine that this is happening a few millseconds after hitting a crash cymbal - that you don't want to trigger again - and you've got a much more complex problem.
Now consider different timbres of drum hits, different volumes, open-close hi-hat beats, flams, ghost notes.....
If you have separate tracks for each drum then things are different and there are quite a few ways of finding the hits and triggering midi.
I think your time might be better off re-programming your drum tracks (you can use the mp3s as a starting point), or even to try some readily available ones.
Anyway, I hope I'm wrong and that it all works for you.
Your basic idea will work though.
I used an Atari computer (wow, was it that long ago?), to play my midi tracks, to switch reverb & echo on my mixer, drum patches, and guitar effects.
As PW said, g'luck.
Are you saying a multi-track of acoustic drums will not play correctly as a midi file?
I am also using analog bass tracks as well.
I was under the impression that a Midi file would play anything you "record" into it, not just trigger "midi" sounds.
Say you wanted to take a copy of Guns and Roses Welcome to the Jungle and put it into a midi file to play along with in a keyboard?
BTW I do have 8 separate drum tracks for each peice (with slight bleed over that can be mostly compressed/limited out) although the pads themselves are not isolated.
I will certainly return and post whatever I do succeed in and what fails.
keep shinin
jerm
Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Feb. 08 2009, 7:04 AM)
Are you saying a multi-track of acoustic drums will not play correctly as a midi file?
I am also using analog bass tracks as well.
I was under the impression that a Midi file would play anything you "record" into it, not just trigger "midi" sounds.
Say you wanted to take a copy of Guns and Roses Welcome to the Jungle and put it into a midi file to play along with in a keyboard?
BTW I do have 8 separate drum tracks for each peice (with slight bleed over that can be mostly compressed/limited out) although the pads themselves are not isolated.
I will certainly return and post whatever I do succeed in and what fails.
keep shinin
jerm
No quite - I was saying that if you have a mp3 file with a mixed-down drum track it would be practically impossible to un-mix them and convert to midi. But you've got separate tracks so that's good, you should have a much better chance.
Of course MIDI can trigger drums and bass and anything else that you have a sampler/instrument (hardware or software) for. Remember that a midi file is not a "recording" as such - it's just a collection of instructions to different instruments to play certain notes at certain times. "Converting" an mp3 file to midi is not the same as converting an mp3 to a wav or a bmp to a jpeg. It's more like taking a blend of mixed paint and trying to unmix the colours back into their separate pots.
But with your separate tracks you should be good to go. I've used a plugin called KT Drum Trigger to convert single drum tracks (eg kick) to midi to then trigger a different sample. It still needs quite a bit of fiddling and clean up though.
To be blunt, it’s a nearly impossible task unless the original wave tracks are just right – then it can work pretty well.
Looks at it this way, you are trying to convert a digital representaion of analog audio to a list of data that says “this particular note starts now and lasts this long” and NOTHING more.
Listen to the wave tracks and see how easy it is to pick out that kind of data, then remember that wave to MIDI converters are a LOT dumber than even the dumbest of us – we use our brains to pick out all kinds of stuff that is pretty hard to filter through.
Anther thought, can you use EQ (or some other effect) to remove everything except a single instrument? That’s what’s needed. Easy for ears. Hard for filters.
If Jerm has the drums as
a ‘multi-track’
set of mp3 or wav files
(either Kick on one track, snares on antother, etc. or all mixed to a single track)
- mixed on single track would take some trial and error to get it right, but
he should be able to convert those to midi- Fruity Slicer or some other re-trigger
program, merge the midi and use any of a number of progies out
there to play/re-record the midi at a particular tempo. Then save that midi
file and layer over his effects control track.
Not easy until you do it several times I imagine - but I think doable.
But I think a better approach would be to use another midi control
track to trigger - say 8-16 bar slices of his wav/mp3 drum track.
And use 2 control tracks - 1 for effects, and 1 for samples. That
way they would be in sync.
I am starting to understand…very slowly… 
Is there some sort of limit to the size of a midi sample or something?
If not, I do not understand why I cannot just convert a 4 min. wav. mixed down drum track to a single 4 min Midi “sample” and trigger it at the beginning of the song?
I agree, Seven, at the least two midi files are needed, that seems consistent with the manual, one for FX triggering, the other for whatever else is going to be “played” or triggered along with it.
I have seen my friends Roland save a midi vocal track and play it back in midi, I cannot imagine it was simply “triggering” midi sound effects, it sounded like a human voice that was recorded.
There is something I just can’t seem to rap my brain around with all this, sorry guys.
keep shinin
jerm
Triggering samples is not the same as converting a wave track to MIDI. Triggering a sample with MIDI takes zero wave to MIDI conversion. All you do it open the wave into a sample player and set it up to play with any MIDI note. Our previous explanations are not useful if all you’re trying to do is trigger a sample.
I searched for “Trigger sample with MIDI” and this came up early in the list.
http://www.mspinky.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=854
There were many hits that looked interesting.
I am not wanting to trigger samples in Midi, just play back a wav. file (complete acoustic drum track) thatis converted to Midi, for the purpose of aligning that up with FX (guitar fx, amp sims etc) that will be “triggered” at selected parts of the song.
I am not sure that was mentioned in the thread, but one thing I am sure of I am more confused now than when I started.
I am in the process of converting my first acoustic drum track to a midi file, installed ProTracks(Cakewalk) and X-edit, and will be attempting to create the Midi file that will trigger the guitar FX in the GNX4 soon.
I will let you all know how it turns out for sure.
One small step for me into midi, and hopefully a giant leap forward for one man band kind.
keep shinin
jerm
Why not have everything pre recorded and just push play?
Quote: (Poppa Willis @ Feb. 08 2009, 10:26 PM)
Why not have everything pre recorded and just push play?
Well that certainly would take away from the whole "live" feel
not to mention the "performance" aspect of a music show.You know like back in the day, a guy up on stage strumming and shredding away while he howls to the high heavens....
The whole purpose of this exercise and the newly purchased device (Digitech GNX4) is to be able to sequence LIVE guitar FX during the playback of backing tracks.
Anywho, I downloaded a proggy called Intelliscore demo version.(seems like a pretty nifty notation device.
I converted my acoustic drum track (it only allows 15 sec, in demo mode) into Midi and saved that.
I opened up ProTracks Plus and opened up the midi file.
IT put a nice navy blue box on the screen, I pressed play and watched the time bar go from one side of the box to the end of it without a sound.
I am going to have to tackle this tomorrow, fading fast.
I don't know why I can hear nothing, might be something to do with my breakout box (M-audio Firewire) or the recent software installments of various Midi configurations.
I have never tried to play a midi file out of my M-adio Audiophile, but I did see them as a possible input and output device when I installed ProTracks.
Mind you, I do not own a midi cable, all these devices (the GNX4 and The Audiophile are connected via USB or firewire, do not know if that is part of the problem.
Perhaps I will open up the newly converted midi file in Ntrack, who knows it may play in there, since I have not messed around with that part of the proggy.
keep shinin
jerm