Impeach Bush

Quote (gtr4him @ Nov. 10 2005,15:53)
Ding-ding-ding! Give that man a ceegar!

I have a pretty d#$n good idea of what would happen. I just wonder if anybody else ever thinks about it?

BTW, WWIII would NOT be a pretty thing to see...

TG

So fear of WW III is the reason we are overseas fighting in Iraq? I wanna make sure I have this right. You are saying that the Bush administration saw a possibility for WW III in Saddam's actions and premptively struck Iraq? Is that what happened? So it was the aggression of Saddam Hussain that caused us to dismantle their government.

Guys, wake up. We are the aggressors here. If there will be a WW III, it could very well be because we tried to "democratize" the middle east.

Nothing says love like invading a country and killing tens of thousands of their people.

:angry:

Answer the question Doc. I don’t necessarily think that WWIII would bust out. Not right away anyhow… but what would the rest of the world be like if we pulled in our shell and became isolationist? What do you think would happen and where?

I’m not trying to justify the war in Iraq. It irks me though that the same people who were shouting “Go get 'em!” BEFORE Dub was even in office NOW want to crucify him for it. It stinks.

TG

TG, it is not an either or, that’s another false dichotomy.

I would point out two things from the PNAC stuff. (1) the plan was on the table from 1997 at least. (2) “Pax Americana” means political realism in interenational politics - i.e., torture and other violations of human rights if that’s what’s “needed.” We’re the fucking USA. We have been human rights leaders. Now we have a VP who advocates TORTURE. We use CHEMICAL WEAPONS on civilians. AND FOR WHAT?

To protect oil access? We had that. To make Cheney and his Satanic party MONEY.

I dunno, TG, I can’t understand how anyone would think this is good either in terms of strategy or morally.

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I’m not trying to justify the war in Iraq.


Never said I was…

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what would the rest of the world be like if we pulled in our shell and became isolationist? What do you think would happen and where?


TG – tired of typin’ it… :p

TG,

No one is saying that we should be isolationists. The US should be a positive influence where ever we can. I said positive influence. But mostly, we should get our own house in order before we start dictating to the rest of the world. Can’t you see that we look like hypocrites? We invade a country cause “their leader was torturing his own people”. Now we go in a show him how to do it right?!?

This war never had to be. Much of the world lives on American made dollars. We pull those dollars away and dictators fall. American tecnology could make gasoline worthless in less than 10 years. Could we not be that patient?

Tom is right about “why”. It is all about money… or if you want to go to the seven deadly… it is about greed. It was never about “peace in the world” or “WMD” or “a dictator torturing his own”. It has always been about greed and the news now is just starting to prove it.

As I said at the beginning, “Bush and his cronies should be run out of Washington on a rail”. They are raping the world in the name of America and we are allowing it. And the saddest thing of all is that there are still people who will blindly follow a man who cares nothing about anyone but his corporate buddies and cronies.

I need a drink…

Hmmm… lets see if I have this right. Dub, Cheney, Rummy et al whom each ALREADY have more money than most countries GNP, got together and said “Hey, let’s topple Hussein and take Iraq for ourselves! Sure, we’ll kill a few thousand of our guys in the process but so what!” It that the gist of it?

TG

I tell ya’ what fellers… I’m sorry I brought it up. I’m wasting your time and mine. You keep believing your “sources” and I’ll keep questioning mine OK? I don’t want to give anybody a raft of bovine droppings as I DO respect your views. (Even if they’re WRONG! Kidding… kidding… put the torches and hot oil away…)

Meanwhile, I have taken an alter ego more befitting my mood… (cue audio fade out with echo) Diogenes man… man… man… man… :D :D

Who knows in ten or fifteen years maybe I’ll have as many aliases as Soul Mike! Nah… I’M not that schizophrenic.

D

PS Remember the Vets tomorrow!

Quote (gtr4him @ Nov. 10 2005,19:49)
Hmmm... lets see if I have this right. Dub, Cheney, Rummy et al whom each ALREADY have more money than most countries GNP, got together and said "Hey, let's topple Hussein and take Iraq for ourselves! Sure, we'll kill a few thousand of our guys in the process but so what!" It that the gist of it?

TG

It has been said that the simplest explanation is often the right one. You show me an other reason and I will listen. But the facts to date point that direction.

I find that hard to believe… I think. I sincerely HOPE it is not the case. How do we know these “facts” you speak of are true? Is there not an easier way to way to make money other than toppling governments (sic) and causing wars?

That’s a tough sell…

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It has been said that the simplest explanation is often the right one.


AH! But there is no right and wrong. It’s just all grey fuzzy stuff. So THAT won’t wash. Danggit! There I go rafting shit… sorry!

D – Peace and goodnight! (or piece and goodnight if you are luckier than me!) :D

Eyup!

Trouble is, all this has happened before. Your politicians have a perfect example of what happens when a country believes itself to be #1 and decides to “civilise” the rest of the world.
I am speaking of the British Empire.
The current situation in Iraq is very similar to the Suez crisis. We lost that one and gave Nasser the ego boost he needed to go on and invade Israel a few years later.
The rest, as they say, is history.
Trouble with history is, it’s in the past and people either don’t read books or are so arrogant as to think they know better than countless generation who have been through the same shit.
History is bunk?
I don’t think so…

Steve

Quote (Beefy Steve @ Nov. 11 2005,10:15)
Trouble with history is, it's in the past and people either don't read books or are so arrogant as to think they know better than countless generation who have been through the same shit.

History is bunk?
I don't think so..

Right Steve... there's a LOT of history I don't care to see repeated.

TG

Hmmm… where have I heard this before…

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Successive investigations have documented the failure of U.S. intelligence agencies to correctly judge Iraq’s chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs before the war, including a commission appointed by Bush that concluded that the intelligence was “dead wrong.” The government relied on lying sources, fragmentary information and unwarranted analysis, the commission found, resulting in one of the "most damaging intelligence failures in American history."



Excerpted from THIS article. Bold emphasis mine.

TG

PS 8 pages! 7 to go…

Quote (gtr4him @ Nov. 10 2005,19:49)
Hmmm… lets see if I have this right. Dub, Cheney, Rummy et al whom each ALREADY have more money than most countries GNP, got together and said “Hey, let’s topple Hussein and take Iraq for ourselves! Sure, we’ll kill a few thousand of our guys in the process but so what!” It that the gist of it?

TG

Yes. That’s really pretty much it. The air in the realm of the wealthy distorts one’s vision, so really it doesn’t seem at all odd to them.

edit: one exception - W. Bush was not in on the plan, it wasn’t until after 9/11 that the others converted him. That’s why powell was in the first term and out the 2nd, incidentally.

wow, all very Oliver Stone-like.

can’t wait for the 4 hour movie “Dubya” wherein Dick Cheney is portrayed as the gay lover of Scooter Libby.

Yes, Stone like, but true. Unbelievable, really. Dunno about that bit about scooter and the dick, however.

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Yes, Stone like, but true.


You sure seem convinced Tom. Share the proof.

TG

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Your politicians have a perfect example of what happens when a country believes itself to be #1 and decides to “civilise” the rest of the world.
I am speaking of the British Empire.


But we did civilise the world Steve!

Just see how many nations now play 1st class cricket! :D

Ok, they don’t play it in the USA any more, just rounders instead.

Which probably explains a lot. :(

:laugh:

Eyup!

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Just see how many nations now play 1st class cricket!


Exactly my point Ali, most of them are now better than us! :( :( :(

Steve

P.S. Dontcha just love watching girls play rounders. They flail around with the bat as if the ball is coming from eight different directions at the same time. Then they do that gangly running thing ???

I bet their jangly bits look great when they do their stuff though :)

Quote (Diogenes @ Nov. 12 2005,14:19)
Yes, Stone like, but true.


You sure seem convinced Tom. Share the proof.

TG
Inference to best explanation. (1) they said years before 9/11 what they wanted to do, and they have been doing it. That in itself is enough evidence. (2) the story re: Iraq has changed so many times now, even intelligent people don't remember what was said, but one thing is clear - they lied about it. (3) the change in gov't was intentionally slow to make sure that western investors got the goods. Look at who owns what now, and which companies have been getting the no bid contracts.

These people have played so many folks for dupes. They pretend to be Christian, but their Christianity is a sham. Well, not Cheney, he only claims to be a realist. You know what that means in theories of international conflict - if not, look up the entry for "War" at plato.stanford.edu, and scroll down to "realism." It amounts to the view that moral rules don't apply internationally, that all that matters is getting one's own. So - no human rights, hence the innumerable violations that have all been with the tacit or explicit approval of the admin, the tortures, the avoidance of due process through things like gitmo, the appaling lack of concern for the enviroment, for people, for anything really.

The republican party has repeatedly tampered with elections, they have shoved through socially regressive legislation, they have shoved through tax breaks for the ultra wealthy while making it harder for the rest of us to get along, they have covered for criminals like Rove and Libby, they don't give a #### about you or me or morality or anything but themselves. This is not the repub party of Reagan, or Eisenhower, or the first Bush. They are a bunch of chicken hawks as has been said, and the sooner they are out of office the better for everyone. Dulce bellum inexpertis as Erasumus' proverb would have it - war is sweet to those who have not experienced it. I've never been in the military, but I can't imagine that the fact that nearly all leading dems have been in the military and nearly none of the repubs have been is any accident. The people in the admin are the moral equvalent of killers, and do not seek freedom but rather tools to further their own purposes.

I don't expect to convince anyone, but one sort of hopes that saying it over and over will cause a few to convince themselves. You have to look at the evidence for yourself - go read through the PNAC docs, and ask: what is the significance of the fact that they came in 1998? That the admin has done what Cheney et al said they would do years before? Of the many people who were on the inside who said that they sought to use 9/11 to justify the war? That we NEVER see body bags, that we NEVER get real pictures of the war on mainstram media?

It is not a moral war, it is strategically a failure, and cheney and bush et al just don't give a ####.

However - U of Michigan won, and still have a chance for the big ten title, so I guess not all is lost.
:)