The simplest possible use of n-Track Studio...

Direct to Two Track Recording

Hello,

Please let me know if there’s a mouse click or key sequence that I can type to tell n-Track to start recording to a new file when doing direct to two track live recording.
Sorry if this has been answered before (pointers to other threads or FAQs welcome), but I could not find this in the manual, FAQ, or several forum searches.

Here’s the background:

I’m currently using a Creative E-MU 0404 USB audio interface.
I purchased n-Track Studio because I was not crazy about the included software (an ancient version of Cubase LE) and I needed a way to create bit-perfect high resolution (24-bit, 88.2 kHz) recordings.
On Windows, this generally means using the manufacturers’ ASIO drivers, which eliminates simple alternatives like Audacity, Goldwave, etc.
I do realize that a full DAW like n-Track studio is crazy overkill for such a simple task, but I was not able to find a simpler or less expensive alternative.

My particular use-case is recording a series of songs live and direct to two track.
Mixing, EQ, and effects, to the extent that these are used, are already done at the (physical) mixer; the main stereo output is fed directly into the audio interface.

My workflow involves starting n-Track Studio, adding a stereo track, enabling the track for recording from the analog inputs on the E-MU 0404 USB, and hitting “0” to start recording.
I have tried just leaving n-Track recording, but it stopped when the WAV file got too large (2GB?), causing me to freak out and miss the last half of a song (there are no second takes in this instance)!
My solution is to click “Stop” and then “Record” between each song, but this results in the recordings showing up as multiple takes of the same song on the timeline.
This is also terrifying because it looks like each song is recording over the previous one.

As another option, I have saved a template file, made a bunch of copies of this template file before the performance starts, renaming each to match the song names in the program.
Before each song, I shutdown n-Track Studio, re-launch n-Track by double-clicking on the next template file, enable recording and map the track to the analog input, and hit “0” to start recording.
This kind-of works, but it takes a good 10-15 seconds to do, causing me to miss the beginning of the next song, and if I don’t enable recording to the correct audio interface input, I can miss an entire song!

Prior to using n-Track studio and the E-MU 0404 USB interface, I ran the outputs of the mixer to this Edirol R-O9HR recorder:



This device does not sound as good as ADC in the E-MU 0404 USB, but it has handy “SPLIT” button that I can press between songs.
When I press “SPLIT”, recording continues automatically to a new filename, which means that I never loose a second of the event, I don’t have to worry about file size limits, and when the performance is done, I just have to use a WAV editor to trim and add fade-in/fade-out to the start/end of each file.
This is faster/easier than manually chopping up a big 90 minute track into individual songs in post-production.

I’m looking for the “SPLIT” button on n-Track studio, but I’ve not found it yet.
Playing with the keyboard, I’ve discovered that hitting “B” or “N” seems to cause n-Track to completely dump the WAV file that it’s recording to, which is also terrifying.
I’ve tried clicking on the scissors icon during recording, but that does not seem to do anything.
If n-Track has this “Split” feature, please let me know, and thanks so much for reading this far!

Here’s a photo of my home setup (I was using this to transfer some old cassette tape live recordings to FLAC and CD/DVD-Audio):



My live setup is basically the same (Rode NT5 mics to Behringer 1002B mixer to E-MU 0404 USB to n-Track Studio).
Post production of the WAV files involves Audacity (trims and fades) to Mediamonkey Gold (album art and metadata tagging, mp3 and CD output), and Cirlnica HD-Audio Solo Ultra to create 88.2 kHz, 24-bit DVD Audio discs.

http://www.wavosaur.com/

Does ASIO. :)

UJ

PS Did I mention FREE?

Cool.
Thanks!

I’ve downloaded wavosaur and will give it a try, but since I already paid for an n-Track Studio license, I’m still hoping to find a way to do track "SPLIT"ing while recording live in n-Track.
It is a very powerful application, so I will be surprised if this feature is not in there somewhere, although I conceede that a DAW is normally used to work on one song at a time rather than to record an entire set of songs live.

If n-Track can’t do this today, it would be a nice (and probably easy) feature to add. Hint-hint. :slight_smile:

Well… there is another option out there that is PERFECT for this application. I use it all the time in a situation same as you. But since you’ve already bought n-Track AND I’ll get the bejeezus beat out of me for mentioning it… best just put in a bug report and/or feature request here;

http://forum.ntrack.com/cgi-bin/ikonforum/index.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=7901

If you’re interested in my solution that WORKS… PM me. Apologies to n-Track peeps… but n really stinks at this particular application. :heart-break: Before you get the pitchforks, torches and clubs, YES… I did try it for recording loooonnnngggg sets like dmp-potn wants… bad experience. It just was… Sorry… shrug

UJ

Quote:

My workflow involves starting n-Track Studio, adding a stereo track, enabling the track for recording from the analog inputs on the E-MU 0404 USB, and hitting "0" to start recording.
I have tried just leaving n-Track recording, but it stopped when the WAV file got too large (2GB?), causing me to freak out and miss the last half of a song (there are no second takes in this instance)!
My solution is to click "Stop" and then "Record" between each song, but this results in the recordings showing up as multiple takes of the same song on the timeline.
This is also terrifying because it looks like each song is recording over the previous one.


My fellow colleagues here will confirm this, I am a bit slow, but in 10 years of using Ntrack I have never done what you are saying, "adding stereo track"..."enabling the track for recording"....and have no idea why this would be necessary or a wanted thing to do for recording live audio.

If course my soundcard is set up properly and recording two mono tracks automatically when I press, Record....no "0"'s, "adding stereo tracks"..."enabling"...or any of other strange ways to go about this simple task.

Honestly I feel I sorta understand what you are trying to do (record something) only am totally baffled and confused about the way which you are explaining it and going about it.

Unblown sounds like he is familiar with your method and that he has a solution that works well with that....

But if you just want to press record like you would do on a hardware device and record two mono tracks like the Emu will send, then stick around and hopefully someone familiar with your soundcard will be able to help you with that.

Mine, (the makie ONYX) was not so complicated, just loaded the ASIO drivers set the channels up in preferences and press the little red icon (RECORD) and BAM, 16 mono tracks appeared across the screen....

Also not familiar with the 2G limitation (but I record in Mono) I once set it to record on a laptop at a gig and came back an hour later and it was still recording....

keep shinin

jerm :cool:
Quote: (Unblown_Jonson @ Nov. 10 2010, 6:44 PM)

... best just put in a bug report and/or feature request here;

http://forum.ntrack.com/cgi-bin/ikonforum/index.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=7901

I have submitted a new bug report:
http://ntrack.com/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=109

Thanks!
Quote: (dmp-potn @ Nov. 10 2010, 8:28 PM)

Quote: (Unblown_Jonson @ Nov. 10 2010, 6:44 PM)

... best just put in a bug report and/or feature request here;

http://forum.ntrack.com/cgi-bin/ikonforum/index.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=7901

I have submitted a new bug report:
http://ntrack.com/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=109

Thanks!

Good. I hope you find a method that works for you with n-Track.

@jerm - The 2GB size limit is an OS 'thing'. It's not a big deal for a properly coded app on a modern system. Way back when I was trying this with n-Track it would crap out on me and I gave it up. *shrug* Today? Don't know... :D

dmp-potn,

Have you tried just letting it run and dropping a marker at transitions you want? I don't remember how n handles markers. In that 'other' app, I just press the shortcut key "M" and a numbered marker is dropped on the timeline. Later at edit time, it's a simple matter to chop the individual songs up for editing and whatnot... The same is probably available in n-Track. Ideally, you want to start the machine recording and not do anything unnecessary at ALL if you can help it. I just let it run and drop markers... Worry about the rest when it's over. However, I haven't tried this with n since V4 or maybe early V5 days...

UJ
Quote: (Unblown_Jonson @ Nov. 10 2010, 6:44 PM)

Well... there is another option out there that is PERFECT for this application. I use it all the time in a situation same as you. But since you've already bought n-Track AND I'll get the bejeezus beat out of me for mentioning it... best just put in a bug report and/or feature request here;

http://forum.ntrack.com/cgi-bin/ikonforum/index.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=7901

If you're interested in my solution that WORKS... PM me. Apologies to n-Track peeps... but n really stinks at this particular application. :heart-break: Before you get the pitchforks, torches and clubs, YES... I did try it for recording loooonnnngggg sets like dmp-potn wants... bad experience. It just was... Sorry... *shrug*

UJ

Talk about tippy toes..LOL ???

It's OK you can tell him what program your referring to. :D


PACO
Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 10 2010, 8:20 PM)

...in 10 years of using Ntrack I have never done what you are saying, "adding stereo track"..."enabling the track for recording"....and have no idea why this would be necessary or a wanted thing to do for recording live audio.

Well, I did say that I'm new to n-Track.
:-)
I had no idea that I could just hit record with no tracks in the project, but as you suggested, that seems to work.
Here's a screencast that shows me doing just that:


http://www.screencast.com/t/ynJLHLsw

The only "bug" with this approach seems to be that I have to type "CTRL-S" twice to avoid the "you have unsaved changes" dialog box when starting a new song.
I wish there was a hot-key for starting a new song as well (CTRL-N did not seem to work), but as you can see in the video above, it only takes a few seconds for me to start a new song now, so that is certainly workable.

You guys have been great.
Thanks!

-- David

ooo ooo you have permission to mention PRO TOOLS! Whoot! or any other 8.

Quote: (Paco572 @ Nov. 10 2010, 9:21 PM)

Talk about tippy toes..LOL
???

It's OK you can tell him what program your referring to.
:D


PACO

Meh... no biggie... I gave 'im a few 'tips' via PM. Just trying to help a brudda out. Maybe he can work it out with n... if not, he has some options.

The 'unmentionable' really excels at tracking. I routinely track 24/44.1 audio 24 mono tracks from 40 minutes up to 2 hours on a crappy Athlon 1600 machine. Take 'em to Unblown Stoodios for mixing though. Poor old Athlon ain't got the muscle when I start piling on FX, ReaTuning, drum replacing, etc... end up with 30 or more tracks.

It's all good I rekkin'

UJ

PS Neat feature for n if it doesn't already do it; Set the program to offset file switches when multi-tracking and the file size limit is reached. Instead of the OS trying to stop, close, make new, start recording two dozen (or more?) files at once, they're staggered to avoid hiccups and/or having to use HUGE buffer sizes. (Makes for crap latency)
Quote: (Unblown_Jonson @ Nov. 10 2010, 8:40 PM)

Have you tried just letting it run and dropping a marker at transitions you want? I don't remember how n handles markers. In that 'other' app, I just press the shortcut key "M" and a numbered marker is dropped on the timeline. Later at edit time, it's a simple matter to chop the individual songs up for editing and whatnot... The same is probably available in n-Track. Ideally, you want to start the machine recording and not do anything unnecessary at ALL if you can help it. I just let it run and drop markers... Worry about the rest when it's over. However, I haven't tried this with n since V4 or maybe early V5 days...

I actually just cranked n-Track up to try your marker suggestion.
CTRL-M seems to work as you describe during recording.
Once the event is over, it's fairly easy to select the audio between the markers (with "Snap to Markers" enabled) and choose "File -> Clone Selection to new Song".
After doing this, the selection shifts to time=0:00.00, but that will only really become annoying when I have more than a dozen or so tracks in an event.
:-)

My "dedicated audio notebook" is running Windows XP SP3, 32-bit, so it has the 2GB file limitation.
My other notebook is running Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, but I use this for every day computing, so it has lots of applications installed.
I'll do some testing to see if it can record glitch-free at 24-bits, 88.2 kHz for two hours or so on the "every day" notebook.
If so, the marker approach might be a viable alternative to the "save and create new song" dance that I described earlier.
Thanks again!
Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 10 2010, 8:20 PM)

Also not familiar with the 2G limitation (but I record in Mono) I once set it to record on a laptop at a gig and came back an hour later and it was still recording....

Just read this again.
Yes, I hit that 2GB limit on my 32-bit XP notebook when recording to stereo!

You are correct that recording to a pair of mono tracks will effectively double the time that I can record in one session before I hit the 2GB limit since n-Track is writing to a pair of WAV files.
If my math is right, I should be able to record for at least two hours and fifteen minutes to a pair of mono files vs. a little over an hour for a single stereo file at 24-bits, 88.2 kHz.

I like your suggestion and will record to a pair of mono tracks from now on.
This may give me a little more control in post production too if I decide after the event that my center is skewed to one side, etc.
Thanks again!
Quote: (dmp-potn @ Nov. 11 2010, 7:32 AM)

Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 10 2010, 8:20 PM)

Also not familiar with the 2G limitation (but I record in Mono) I once set it to record on a laptop at a gig and came back an hour later and it was still recording....

Just read this again.
Yes, I hit that 2GB limit on my 32-bit XP notebook when recording to stereo!

You are correct that recording to a pair of mono tracks will effectively double the time that I can record in one session before I hit the 2GB limit since n-Track is writing to a pair of WAV files.
If my math is right, I should be able to record for at least two hours and fifteen minutes to a pair of mono files vs. a little over an hour for a single stereo file at 24-bits, 88.2 kHz.

I like your suggestion and will record to a pair of mono tracks from now on.
This may give me a little more control in post production too if I decide after the event that my center is skewed to one side, etc.
Thanks again!

That's about what I came up with too...

I recorded a mono track approx 30 minutes long, the file size came out to 307.2000001 megabytes, this is .3 gigabytes. (this was in 16bit tho)

x6 that would be 1.8 gig to be safe which is around 3 hours.

although if it were me I would still break it up into sessions when there are moments with enough time to do so.

Quote:


The only "bug" with this approach seems to be that I have to type "CTRL-S" twice to avoid the "you have unsaved changes" dialog box when starting a new song.
I wish there was a hot-key for starting a new song as well (CTRL-N did not seem to work), but as you can see in the video above, it only takes a few seconds for me to start a new song now, so that is certainly workable.


Ok for that here is what I suggest.

Start Ntrack and "Save as" Test1.
Now click New. (save changes and all that, although you haven't done anything your just creating files with names at this point)
NOW name this new file Test2, and save it, click new again.

Now open your original file (Test1) if You click File at the top you should see all the recent files you have saved on the bottom, Click TEST1 on that gray strip.
Record two mono's in Test1 for a bit.
NOW as it is recording and you are ready to start a different file, click the FILE tab and scroll down to your other file name (Test2)
when that goes to open Ntrack will just ask "save" click YES then immediately click RECORD in your new file, this takes approx 1/2 a second between the time the last file was recording and the new one, the first file just stops recording as soon as the new one is prompted to open so you don't have to click stop or save.

Oh and the other thing I did want to suggest for field recording is to bring a power conditioner and make sure you are using shielded cables for your digital audio transfer from the USB device.
That might seem like overkill to some people, however it is better to be safe than sorry and the power sources in live events and other interferences(ham radio, wireless mic/guitar systems, etc etc)
can produce all sorts of things you may not encounter at home.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Perhaps a dumb question, but why 88.2? That is a space hog for sure. I would go 44.1, get twice the reocrd time, and call it day meself.

Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 11 2010, 10:51 AM)

Perhaps a dumb question, but why 88.2? That is a space hog for sure. I would go 44.1, get twice the reocrd time, and call it day meself.

Not a dumb question... I wanted to ask myself, but didn't. If the final target is CD or mp3 - 44.1k is fine. DVD/Video? - 48k.

Believe me, average Joe/Jane won't know the difference between 44.1k, 88.2k or even 192k. Save a LOT of disk space and a LOT of CPU horsepower.

Definitely 24 bit though... give yourself some headroom and let 'er eat...

Just me though...

UJ
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 11 2010, 10:51 AM)

Perhaps a dumb question, but why 88.2? That is a space hog for sure. I would go 44.1, get twice the reocrd time, and call it day meself.

Not a dumb question.
Mike Story does a good job of explaining why higher sampling rates can sound better in this paper:


http://www.cirlinca.com/include/aes97ny.pdf

I have observed these results in my own listening.
The higher sampling rate means that the slope of the filter in the digital to analog converter can be much more gradual, which on just about every DAC makes the treble sound more natural and liquid and enjoyable during playback vs. the old 44.1 kHz redbook sampling frequency.

If I was recording audio for video tracks, I would use 96kHz instead, but the output of my workflow for these projects is 44.1kHz MP3 and standard audio compact discs (for most folks); and 88.2 kHz, 24-bit FLAC and DVD-Audio discs (for audiophile nerds).
It's easier to convert to 44.1 kHz from 88.2 without audible artifacts because the math is simple.
Besides limiting maximum recording time in a single session, the cost for disk space is minimal since I'm only recording one stereo or two mono tracks.
If I was recording 24 tracks at a time, the story might be different!
:-)

I will concede that I can't hear the difference between 88.2kHz and 176.4kHz playback on my equipment, so I have settled on 88.2kHz and 24-bits as my standard.

Speaking of playback, here's a photo of the room where I do most of my listening:



Cheers!
Quote: (Unblown_Jonson @ Nov. 11 2010, 11:56 AM)

...If the final target is CD or mp3 - 44.1k is fine. DVD/Video? - 48k.

Believe me, average Joe/Jane won't know the difference between 44.1k, 88.2k or even 192k. Save a LOT of disk space and a LOT of CPU horsepower.

Definitely 24 bit though... give yourself some headroom and let 'er eat...

I agree 100% to all of the above...at least for the average Joe/Jane.
For me, the difference in treble reproduction during playback between 44.1 kHz and 88.2 kHz is great enough to justify the minimal extra fuss.
I can achieve most of the benefits by upsampling before/during playback, but it's nice to have the original bits that were captured at the main outputs of the mixer during the live event.

This difference is probably the reason behind the (growing) preference for the sound of vinyl over compact discs.
I'm not a big vinyl fan myself because glitch free playback is difficult to achieve and maintain, and the playback ritual is a pain in the butt.
However I am a big fan of high fidelity sound reproduction, and I suspect that most ardent vinyl fans have not experienced what is now possible with quality high resolution digital audio playback--largely due to the of the lack of source material...and it's our job to create that.
:-)

I know the theory as certainly on something like an 0404 where the clock and converters are not Mytek/Burl level you can bury the LPF way up in the inaudible range. I just don’t know if it will matter that much. I suppose it really depends on the room and the performance. A typical rock show boot leg, with all the crowd noise, beer bottle clanking, etc I would think it to be a waste. Classical/jazz in a great room, whole other story. Though, then I would get into why 88.2k if you are using cheap mics and pres rather than Schoeps and Great River or whatever… though with $20k in speakers above (Legacy Focus, very nice), I have a feeling you may not be using anything that cheap… though an 0404 or Edirol makes me go hmm? At the end of the day if you can actually hear it, then it is of course worth it.