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| Jeremy, don’t say this sort of stuff, OK? Jesus is no Jew’s messiah. Christians who have held this have also done silly things like kill lots of Jews, and it’s not an accidental link. |
First of all, “? for short”, don’t be so damm literal!
Secondly, can everyone please stop using the word ####; I assumed it stood for Ohio, but now I see that it isn’t, so I’m confused. 
Ali
As you can tell by my name, I’m a member of the Partridge family. Therefore, #### ### ## ### ########, and that goes for your dog, too. Actually, I just wanted Shirly Jones but she didn’t want me back. Something about incest. The rest of my life has been spent moping around spouting #### ### ##### #### to folks that have no life…such as Dorothy, guidiup and my third cussin and brother ? ? ? and his shorter sister and my mother ? . Keep it in the family I say.
| Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 15 2005,19:16) |
| First of all, "? for short", don't be so damm literal! |
You are all queers.
You can’t help it. You were born that way.
| Quote (TomS @ Aug. 15 2005,19:05) |
| Intead of them being controlled they denied their own savior! Even after 1500 years of prophecy, which all came true..... Most of them still not beleiving in their own messiah to this day! |
| Quote (TomS @ Aug. 15 2005,19:05) |
| Intead of them being controlled they denied their own savior! Even after 1500 years of prophecy, which all came true..... Most of them still not beleiving in their own messiah to this day! |
Morning all. (crack me a can of Lion or Castle Wihan )
Sorry, I’m sort of with Tom on this one. (Ignore my last post to you Tom, go ahead! LOL).
Jerm, I sorta feel the same way about those who claim to have “THE TRUTH” as I do about those sportsmen who claim that God gave them the victory.
And my question remains…
What makes you so damm special?
Ali
EDIT: And I’m sorry you think this thread has gone to “OHIO” Wihan, I was just starting to enjoy it! (Well, until !?! started to get stupid and boring that is; but it’s nice to see your refreshingly sensible input. )
| Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 16 2005,05:00) |
| Morning all. (crack me a can of Lion or Castle Wihan ) Sorry, I'm sort of with Tom on this one. (Ignore my last post to you Tom, go ahead! LOL). Jerm, I sorta feel the same way about those who claim to have "THE TRUTH" as I do about those sportsmen who claim that God gave them the victory. And my question remains........ What makes you so damm special? Ali EDIT: And I'm sorry you think this thread has gone to "OHIO" Wihan, I was just starting to enjoy it! (Well, until !?! started to get stupid and boring that is; but it's nice to see your refreshingly sensible input. ) |
), they turned on Him and had Him crucified.Jermey knows I think he’s a cool dude, but it troubles me when people don’t realize that the same text can be read different ways through different eyes. Christians usually know very little about Judaism, and as a result read things like Psalm 22 through very different lenses. The result historically was all that crap about the jews killing Jesus, the doctrine of supersession, and the negative witness theory. The logical result of all of that was Hitler. When it comes to things like this, I am fully convinced that tolerance is no longer enough, that what is needed is mutual understanding. That would require Jeremy and Wihan and anyone else who doesn’t understand it to take a comparative religions course and study Judaism from a non-Christian point of view. It is one thing to point out that from within a Jewish paradigm Psalm 22 is about the sense of abandonment Jews felt during the period - and is still read by many as descriptive of what has happened in subsequent centuries (that is, it needs to be understood in the “exile and return” framework) - it’s another to actually look in depth enough to get a sense of the coherence and beauty and power of the text in Jewish eyes. It says nothing, however, about Jesus, from that perspective.
One can be guilty of anti-Semitism by negligence, not just intention.
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| One can be guilty of anti-Semitism by negligence, not just intention. |
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| God sees the end from the beginning, He sometimes reveals things which are to happen in the future, through prophecies. Some of the most amazing Bible prophecies are about Jesus; remember, for example, Isaiah 53, to which we have referred several times. These prophecies show that Jesus is truly the Messiah because He fulfilled them. Long before Jesus was born, the Jewish people realised that there were many prophecies in the Scriptures about the Messiah. When Jesus arrived, He said to them, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Me.” [1] If you read the Gospel of Matthew, you will find at least twenty-one references to fulfilled prophecies! The whole of the New Testament clearly shows that it was Jesus who fulfilled these Old Testament prophecies. Let us examine just a few of them and their fulfilment. Jesus to be born of a virgin Hundreds of years before Christ, God spoke through the prophet Isaiah. “The Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.”[2] We see the fulfilment of this prophecy when Mary was visited by an angel who told her she would bear a son. All this took place to fulfil what God had promised.[3] Jesus to be born in Bethlehem Through the prophet Micah, God foretold that Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem. [4] This prophecy was well-known even to King Herod and His advisors. The New Testament tells us that Jesus was indeed born in Bethlehem in Judea. [5] Jesus to perform miracles Again, God said through the prophet Isaiah, “… your God will come … Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.”[6] The Gospel according to Matthew confirms this prophecy in these words: “Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.” [7] Jesus to be crucified The crucifixion of Jesus was not an accident or simply a ghastly mistake. It was Jesus himself who laid down His life. Why? Because God wanted to bring mankind to Himself. It was prophesied that Jesus, “poured out His life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”[8] When Jesus was crucified, the Romans crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. [9] Jesus’ side to be pierced "They will look on Me, the one they have pierced."[10] These words were fulfilled in Jesus when one of the soldiers pierced His side.[11] 1 John 5:39 2 Isaiah 7:14 3 Matthew 1:18,22-23 4 Micah 5:2 5 Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7; John 7:42 6 Isaiah 35:4-6 7 Matthew 9:35; cf. Matthew 11:4-6 8 Isaiah 53:12 9 Matthew 27:38 10 Zechariah 12:10 11 John 19:34 |
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| But Buddha can kick you in the center of your forehead. Ohm-Bak… it is an interesting movie to say the least… |
Wihan, is your quote there from this source?
http://www.domini.org/word_of_life/less07.htm
Try this: study the stuff in the Tenak (which is not exactly the same as the OT) from a Jewish perspective. The bit you’ve quoted is Christian theology from the “Word of Life” Bible course, an evangelistic Christian organization.
In the end, if anyone is really interested in “truth” in the Bible, or in the Tenak, and if they think that truth requires a dispassionate assessment of all of the evidence, they will look at all of the historical evidence bearing on it, not just the self-proving texts of a collection designed to be self-proving. Do this and statements like “the jews failed to realise that the messiah they were looking for (according to their own scriptures) was right there in their midst” will be seen as a bit of Chrisitian theology, based as you say on a reading of the Bible, and I’d say on an intolerant, theologically-driven reading of the Christian Bible not tenable as history.
I understand that your starting point is the truth of the Bible, but even if you don’t want to look at all of the relevant evidence, at least it would be worth looking at what some Jews say about the whole thing, before saying that they missed their messiah Jesus.
I cannot fathom the claim that “we all killed Jesus,” that’s not even in the NT. He was executed by Romans. So even if you have adjusted your theology to avoid the anti-semitism of the claim that “the Jews” (which ones, exactly? The Zealots? Pharasees? Essenes? The followers of Jesus? Christians usually have a mistaken picture of Judaism at the time), you still claim something that sounds to me like it is supersessionist. In any case, it shows ignorance of Judaism.
Go ahead, take a course on Judaism (but make sure that it is secular).
| Quote (TomS @ Aug. 16 2005,11:54) |
| In the end, if anyone is really interested in "truth" in the Bible, or in the Tenak, and if they think that truth requires a dispassionate assessment of all of the evidence, they will look at all of the historical evidence bearing on it, not just the self-proving texts of a collection designed to be self-proving. Do this and statements like "the jews failed to realise that the messiah they were looking for (according to their own scriptures) was right there in their midst" will be seen as a bit of Chrisitian theology, based as you say on a reading of the Bible, and I'd say on an intolerant, theologically-driven reading of the Christian Bible not tenable as history. |
Well, those three religions don’t agree as to the nature of Jesus. Only one says that he was divine.
Nope, gotta go take a class on this stuff. Should be required, IMHO, of all high school students…
A wise man once said these words to me…also owner of a local 7-11.
"Some things can just not be known."
jerm
Perhaps, although I’d like to see a proof (or at least evidence) that there is some particular thing that cannot be known.
Certainly when it comes to theology we can know what people have generally held in the various religions. When it comes to the histories behind certain texts, we have the problems that historians usually have in figuring out what is going on, but that doesn’t seem to be the kind of limitation that should cause us to throw up our hands and say “nope, can’t know anything about that.”
Perhaps the fellow was not wise, but wanted to appear wise. 
Like why there is 10 hot dogs to a pack, and twelve buns in a bag?
This was his answer to that question!
keep shinin’
jerm
Well, there you do have a mystery, the answer to which we probably should not seek.
| Quote (Guest @ Aug. 16 2005,15:23) |
| Like why there is 10 hot dogs to a pack, and twelve buns in a bag? |