Man, buying 5 packs of hotdogs and 6 packs of buns seems a little excessive to me, especially when I live on my own. How do they keep frozen? ok? or better not to?
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| I would like to say that the only truth on earth is the Word of God. |
See Jerm, it’s statements like that I’m uncomfortable with.
I’m Ok with something like; “For me the word of God is the only truth”, but your statement appears to say that you possess something I don’t. That you are somehow more special than me, that you possess “THE TRUTH”, and that is somehow denied to me.
Another recent statement of yours, that animals don’t have souls, also bothers me in the same way.
Again, it appears to be a wee bit of an egocentric statement; that your species is also somehow special too.
But perhaps I’m reading you wrong.
I’ve made it clear that I’m not anti-religion; in some ways I agree with Confucius in that religion can be a great moral guide and a unifying factor in a society, but the “my God, my Church, my religion, is better than yours” attitude depresses me. I’ve seen too much of the horrors that follow on from that.
The works you quoted all proclaim a unique supreme diety, but would you accept works that don’t? Would you accept that the Buddhist holy books, or the works of the atheist humanist Bertrand Russell are just as valid in terms of “truth” as the bible?
Ali
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| I cannot fathom the claim that “we all killed Jesus,” that’s not even in the NT. |
Tom - I don’t see it as literal as that. There is a verse that say that He was killed for our transgressions.
I believe that because of us He had to be killed. The physicallity of how it happened isn’t my concern.
Unfortunately I feel the same way as Jerm on this one. Everything I’ve experienced and felt sofar in my life confirms what I believe. I’ve also witnessed some serious miracles and experienced some life changing things myself. Those can however not be measured or ‘scientifically’ proven. Just like when I tell you that I saw the most beautiful sunset that I’ve ever seen two weeks ago. It’s of no use for me trying to prove to you that it was - how would I begin to do it ? But I was there and I KNOW.
It does seem a little silly (to me) to go and look up something from a different source if i believe (and get almost daily confirmation) that the source I’m using is absolutely true.
The bible that I use, and the dogma that I endorse has been questioned, cross questioned and re examined and compared to the origional basicaly from just before Martin Luther up to know.
But I hear where you are coming from with studying the origional manuscripts, and I would want to get my eyes on them as well, but I don’t have enough knowledge to know for a fact what I’m looking at. Just as certain words and phrases can be translated differently (and often with bias) depending on the different contexts, I also believe that getting a Jewish translation will also not be totally unbiased. I will do my damndest to get into that and see for myself. And when I do I will look at it openmindedly and without prejudice. I just want to know that I read the origional, and not an interpretation.
But you can understand that if I look at the translation that I have (and believe it to be true) that I can make a statement like ‘the jews didn’t realise they had the saviour they were looking for right there with them’ without being anti semitic at all.
And being ignorant of Judaism isn’t the same as being anti semitic.
I don’t have to disprove (or even care to know) other theories if the one I believe has been proven to me already.
But I want to make an effort and see for myself - been wanting to do it for years. It would be cool to be able to see the origionals…
Cheers !
Wihan
Wihan, you don’t come across to me as anti-semitic, nor anti-anything.
BTW, no, we don’t have castle nor lion here, but somewhere I lived once had them as the only beers. Castle gave me heartburn, but Lion was Ok.
Tom, I wonder if you could clarify something for me.
You’ve said that you are a Christian, and you’ve also said that you worship the Goddess. So what are your beliefs?
I know that for many, their beliefs are a private and personal thing, but I’d be interested to know where you are actually standing. 
Anyway, moving back on topic; when is that comet supposed to hit us anyway?
Ali
I hear you Ali.
I’m always cautious and put that ‘for me’ phrase in there.
Even tho’ I believe I’ve got the truth, I also realise that is a very personal thing.
But I also do believe that animals don’t have souls. (Except maybe for one species of fish, but then he’s nothing but sole…) 
If you look at a soul from our point of view then the animal needs to be able to take responsibility for its actions, and I don’t see (other than instinct), how that would work. But I can be wrong. I think its a close call if I look at the number of dogs I know that’s worthy of heaven versus the people that I can say the same of …
****** Another edit : i still can’t say if we are better than animals. I don’t know of (other than pure survival instinct when it is needed) any animal that can be as cruel and evil towards its own species than what us human beings can be
***end another edit
And I agree fully with you about the statement about ‘my church etc is better than yours’.
That depresses me as well.
Stupid analogy, but it’s like arguing Les Paul’s vs Strat - The one isn’t better than the other one. The fact that a Les Paul suit my playing style, and feel better to me doesn’t mean that you should not prefer the strat for the very same reasons.
I feel I know ‘The Truth’, but if I become a spiritual snob becuase of it, then I’m demonstrating that I don’t know Him really all that well.
***yet another edit:
I also firmly believe that Christianity in the most true form is about including, and NOT about excluding at all.
It’s about acceptance, tollerance, forgiveness.
I’m pretty sure Jesus didn’t add a ‘qualifying clause’ in when he said ‘Love thy neighbour as you love yourself’.
end yet another edit *******
Hope I am making sense.
W.
***Edit : Oh, btw, I am not making excuses for what I believe - I’m very proud of it, but (like that mother who shows her child’s photo to everyone) I’m trying not to shove it down on anyone and think they will appreciate it.
Talking about it in the fashion we are doing it (excluding Gideon and ?!?!?! obviously) is very cool.
Thanks Tom and Ali (and Jeremy and others)
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| The Stick Your Weenie in a Bun Foundation |
Eeeeeeeeeeww
Tim - you are a nut as well.
But a very pleasant, level headed and cool nut !
| Quote (jeremysdemo @ Aug. 16 2005,13:21) |
| What would it take for you? Do you need to see a miracle? Water to wine? Or must you find faith in reading, and trying to prove and disprove? |
Honestly Jerm,
What it would take for me would be some sign of compassion! I have a big problem relating the all seeing all loving God of the Bible, with the innocents suffering in this world. I'm fed up hearing the " It's his way", " All shall be revealed" or " It's because of our sins" answers. There millions of people dying in pain and suffering in this world who are not sinners.
Believe me religion is present around me all the time. I was brought up in a Christian environment and live in a Muslim country. I'm fed up with the things done in the name of Religion.( Christian, Muslim or other)
Ian
| Quote (Bruffie @ Aug. 17 2005,06:27) |
| Honestly Jerm, What it would take for me would be some sign of compassion! I have a big problem relating the all seeing all loving God of the Bible, with the innocents suffering in this world. |
Ok, you've got it.
Does not sending your only son to die for the sins of man show compassion? Would you do the same?
It has been said that it is better for one to cut off the part of our body that sins, rather than let the whole body perish eternally.
Our physical body's will suffer on this earth. We are constanly being invaded by diseases, bateria, viruses, and even air..which speeeds up the aging process. Eventually we sucume to our environment, and die. But does that mean God is not merciful to us? NO, at least he offers us eternal life in a kindom free of all this turmoil.
It is our sould that live forever, and it is for them, that He has compassion. If you are so concerned about the suffering of others on this earth, I suggest you pray for them.
BTW--He does answer prayers....not to big on complaining though from what I've read!
jerm
| Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 17 2005,03:45) |
| I would like to say that the only truth on earth is the Word of God. |
See Jerm, it's statements like that I'm uncomfortable with.
I'm Ok with something like; "For me the word of God is the only truth", but your statement appears to say that you possess something I don't. That you are somehow more special than me, that you possess "THE TRUTH", and that is somehow denied to me.
According to this scripture the truth is not denied to you.
"Let he who hath ears hear"
You do have ears right? lol
I do not posses anything, you don't (unless you don't own a Bible).
I am not more special than anyone, if anything I am less.
I am nothing, without Him.
| Quote (Bruffie @ Aug. 17 2005,06:27) |
| I have a big problem relating the all seeing all loving God of the Bible, with the innocents suffering in this world. I'm fed up hearing the " It's his way", " All shall be revealed" or " It's because of our sins" answers. There millions of people dying in pain and suffering in this world who are not sinners. Believe me religion is present around me all the time. I was brought up in a Christian environment and live in a Muslim country. I'm fed up with the things done in the name of Religion.( Christian, Muslim or other) Ian |
Ian - to be brutaly honest those things bother me as well.
I honestly have no answer to that.
I think that will be one of them things that when I arrive at the gates and I'm done with the initial sight seeing I'll go and ask Him (respectfully) - 'What was up with that ?'
And (like we have said millions of times before) I agree with you 200% as well about doing evil in the name of religion.
I'm pretty shure seeing that you live amongst Muslim people that you have realised (if you didn't know it already) that Muslim people are not the evil people that us westerners are willing to lable them as. In fact (like with stupid Christians) it is the very minority that gives the bad impression.
Although I would not blame the Muslim nation if they stand up against 'Western Christianity' - the type that they see blowing up there homeland and killing their people.
It would not (if you look at history) be totally unprovoked.
It would just be sad that they will be willing to make a blanket statement about me, as I call myself Christian.
But lets not get into a political discussion as well as a religious one !
But I hear you Ian. I hear you.
Wihan
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| I do not posses anything, you don’t (unless you don’t own a Bible). I am not more special than anyone, if anything I am less. I am nothing, without Him. |
Total agreement, Jerm.
I feel the same about me.
We’re not special/super/perfect/good - just forgiven.
| Quote (Guest @ Aug. 17 2005,06:42) | ||
Ok, you've got it. Does not sending your only son to die for the sins of man show compassion? Would you do the same? It has been said that it is better for one to cut off the part of our body that sins, rather than let the whole body perish eternally. Our physical body's will suffer on this earth. We are constanly being invaded by diseases, bateria, viruses, and even air..which speeeds up the aging process. Eventually we sucume to our environment, and die. But does that mean God is not merciful to us? NO, at least he offers us eternal life in a kindom free of all this turmoil. It is our sould that live forever, and it is for them, that He has compassion. If you are so concerned about the suffering of others on this earth, I suggest you pray for them. BTW--He does answer prayers....not to big on complaining though from what I've read! jerm
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Sorry Jerm, you have given no answer other than the standard replies. I'm not asking about the sending of His only son or anything else that happened hundreds of years ago. I'm asking about the suffering of innocents NOW! one question only...WHY?
Btw, if you assume from my posts that I am an atheist, you are wrong
P.S. When you ask if I am so concerned about the suffering of others on this earth? I do something very small and insignificant in the scheme of things, I support a family in Africa, it's not much but at least I can see the results in a concrete way and although what I give them is not a lot to me, it seems to be to them.I haven't had my prayers answered as far as I know, but I did get a letter from Africa last month saying that the family had bought a couple of Goats
| Quote (Wihan Stemmet @ Aug. 17 2005,06:56) | ||
Ian - to be brutaly honest those things bother me as well. I honestly have no answer to that. I think that will be one of them things that when I arrive at the gates and I'm done with the initial sight seeing I'll go and ask Him (respectfully) - 'What was up with that ?' And (like we have said millions of times before) I agree with you 200% as well about doing evil in the name of religion. I'm pretty shure seeing that you live amongst Muslim people that you have realised (if you didn't know it already) that Muslim people are not the evil people that us westerners are willing to lable them as. In fact (like with stupid Christians) it is the very minority that gives the bad impression. Although I would not blame the Muslim nation if they stand up against 'Western Christianity' - the type that they see blowing up there homeland and killing their people. It would not (if you look at history) be totally unprovoked. It would just be sad that they will be willing to make a blanket statement about me, as I call myself Christian. But lets not get into a political discussion as well as a religious one ! But I hear you Ian. I hear you. Wihan |
Agreed! Let's leave the politics to Mr Soul, he enjoys it so much
We agree on many things Wihan. True Muslims and true Christians who live by the tenets of thier faith can be wonderful, respectful people and I know many of both. As far as the ones who seem prepared to commit any despicable act in the name of thier religion, I would remind them that neither the Bible or the Koran permit such things and we are all people of The Book.
Ian
My Webpage
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| Tom, I wonder if you could clarify something for me. You’ve said that you are a Christian, and you’ve also said that you worship the Goddess. So what are your beliefs? |
Did I say that I was a Christian? I was raised in a Christian environment, but I’ve never been a Christian in the sense that Wihan or Jeremy are. My wife is pagan, and I teach among other things a basic survey of religions, so our house is filled with a variety of iconography and scriptures. The Green Man outside the door drives our fundamentalist neighbors nuts. I deny the primacy or claims to sole truth of any single organized religion.
Regarding ignorance and anti-semitism - we can distinguish between intentional anti-Semitism (much like intentional racism) and anti-Semitism that results from ignorance. Where the ignorance can be removed and the person doesn’t, I’d say that constitutes negligence, and hence that person is culpable. Neither Wihan nor Jeremy addressed the issues of supersession or the negative witness theory - and neither has said that they will look beyond Christian interpretations of the OT to try to understand why saying that “the Jews” missed their messiah is so deeply problematic. Unless they actually try to understand those texts from a Jewish viewpoint they are negligent and hence culpable for the implications of their beliefs. I am fully confident that once they honestly look at the material from a different viewpoint they will no longer make the claims that they do - in fact, I believe their spirituality will deepen. But only if they honestly and sincerely put the effort into the study.
Wihan, you beg off because you think the texts are too hard for you to understand, or perhaps because you think you don’t have access to them. Most Christians feel this way, and it is totally false. Go take an introductory, university level class on comparative religion, and ask the teacher for stuff to read. Get lots of different perspectives. Christian churches and seminaries have been guilty of withholding the scholarship from the rest of us - and it is pretty obvious to me why, since one of the results of that scholarship is doubt. I think it is very productive doubt, but in terms of power and money it is the sort of thing that ministers and seminaries don’t want, lest they become truly tolerant of the wide variety of spirituality. If you want to get a start on it on your own, just get a standard text in comparative religion, e.g., in English, “World Religions Today” by John Esposito et al, or even one of Huston Smith’s texts. Don’t expect one book to do it, however. It wil take you several years to get to the point where you have a basic working knowledge of even the “big 5” religions.
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| As far as the ones who seem prepared to commit any despicable act in the name of thier religion, I would remind them that neither the Bible or the Koran permit such things and we are all people of The Book. |
RIGHT ON!!
TG
Here is an older but still good short introduction to some of the problems Christians have when thinking about Judaism:
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1312
The author is a highly respected Christian scholar of the OT and chair of the department at U. of South Carolina. I’d be curious to hear your reactions to it, Wihan and Jeremy (and anyone else, too).
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| According to this scripture the truth is not denied to you. "Let he who hath ears hear" You do have ears right? lol |
Yes Jerm, I do have ears, in fact, the whole gamut of human senses, (plus, an uncanny ability to detect pizza at 100 yards through 3 feet of lead!
)And I also have a brain; one that I’m arrogant enough to think is highly intelligent and analytical.
And I have read the scriptures, not only of Christianity but of many other religions and philosophies too.
And to me, the bible just does not add up.
It abounds with self inconsistencies, contradictions and downright daftness.
Not only that, but it also contradicts much of what appears to be real in the real world.
I’m not saying it does not contains truths nor insights, but taken as a whole, it itself denies credibility, not me.
So, unless God decides to speak to me personally, in a manner I’m capable of understanding, then I obviously have been denied THE TRUTH which has been granted to you.
As for “miracles”, yes, they are proclaimed to happen all the time.
“Town flattened by volcanic eruption; unharmed baby miraculously recovered form the rubble 9 days later”.
Well, not a miracle really, not when you consider the statistical odds. A miracle would be if everyone in the town survived.
Anyway Jerm, I ask again, have you studied Buddhist philosophy?
Tom, I thought you did say you were a Christian, but I obviously misremembered, sorry.
Anyway, congrats on carefully avoiding answering the question.
Ali
BTW Jerm, many Muslim scholars do not believe the Koran contains THE TRUTH.
It is indeed the word of God as transmitted by Mohamed, but, Mohamed was a man, a special man, but a man nonetheless.
And to a Muslim, there is one, and one thing only, that is perfect and unchanging, and that is God.
Which means that neither Mohamed nor the Koran can be perfect nor unchanging.
Ali
Well, I wasn’t trying to avoid the question, I was really trying to answer it, as best I could, Ali. I don’t choose to associate myself with any particular view, for I have never found one that was entirely unproblematic. There are elements of this and the other that appeal to me, but I’ve never found anything I could commit to as a package. In part it’s because I don’t think of people as “beings” but as processes, and saying “I am a Christian” makes us out to be static beings rather than processes, if you know what I mean. It’s an old existentialist idea. Do I think Jesus was divine? No. Do I think the myths that have grown up around the historical Jesus interesting and important? Yes. Do I think that fire is a manifestation of Agni? No. Are the vedic hymns interesting and important? Yes.
I’d like very much to have an identity like most other people do, so that I could say that “I am this” or “I am that”, but it seems like so much bad faith. I deeply envy people their identities, it must be great to know who you are, but I am no thing, I am a process of my own making, so “I am X” type statements just won’t work for me.
Sorry, really trying, but that’s the best I can do for now.
Good and honest answer Tom, thank you.
Even though I call myself an atheist, that’s just a convenient label. Although I’ve no evidence of the existence of a god, neither do I deny the possibility.
And I fully agree with your statement that labels often do enforce stasis, which may not be a sin in the eyes of God, but it’s certainly one in the eyes of nature.
Ali