Judgement Day

[system]

Quote (Bruffie @ Aug. 17 2005,08:51)

I haven’t had my prayers answered as far as I know, but I did get a letter from Africa last month saying that the family had bought a couple of Goats

Well I can tell you one thing that is wrong with that.
You are lacking the faith to have your prayers answered if you cannot assume they already are only beause you haven’t seen it happen.
In order to have prayer be effective, it must be beleived that it will happen, and is happening when you speak it. The power of the spoken word. As God spoke the earth into existence so should we, speak our prayers into existence, for His glory. Anytime we pray and let the devil undermind our prayer with doupt, or think we have to see results in order to have been answered we are in err, and only comitting a self-defeating act.
This is MHO, based on my own experiences, and meager undertanding of the scripture concerning prayer.


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I’m asking about the suffering of innocents NOW! one question only…WHY?

I’m afraid your asking the wrong person, you should pray about that.
As far as I would say why, here’s my deduction.
If that family did not suffer, than how would you feel good about yourself, with no one to help?
Likewise, if there was no suffering on this earth, than who could be the helpers? …there would be no such need.
There are enough recorces, and people with wealth on this planet to end it. But is everyone doing their part? NO! That’s WHY there is suffering, not because of God, but because of Man’s selfishness. we bring it upon ourselves.

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P.S. When you ask if I am so concerned about the suffering of others on this earth? I do something very small and insignificant in the scheme of things, I support a family in Africa, it’s not much but at least I can see the results in a concrete way and although what I give them is not a lot to me, it seems to be to them

I to do my part to help the plight of the Africans. I support a group of church called Grace Network. They take the money I tythe and give Africans the greatest gift one could bestow, words of salvation. Shure, they also help out those in financial need, but the true help comes when they return to their homes changed, by the Grace of God. Glory be to Jesus for all He has accomplished on that front.
But that is neither here nor there. I will not make it into heaven by works. Only by Grace. For I am never going to be worthy of the glory of heaven, no matter how many good deeds I do.

A couple of goats heh? That’s a good start, you got goat milk, goat cheeze, a virtual pletherah of thing that one could make.
Start breeding them…WOW! now you got a heard!


keep shinin’
jerm

[Ali_G]

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Well I can tell you one thing that is wrong with that. You are lacking the faith to have your prayers answered if you cannot assume they already are only beause you haven’t seen it happen. In order to have prayer be effective, it must be beleived that it will happen, and is happening when you speak it.

And how have you verified that Jerm?

It wouldn’t be difficult I imagine; just you and a group of people who believe like you do, praying for 50 kids with leukaemia, ought to do it. Of course, there would need to be another, unprayed for control group. Then you need only see afterwards how many of each group had “miraculous” remissions.

Or if you know of a similar valid study, I would be interested in seeing any references.


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to do my part to help the plight of the Africans. I support a group of church called Grace Network. They take the money I tythe and give Africans the greatest gift one could bestow, words of salvation.

There’s so much I want to say in response to that Jerm, but it’s probably wiser if I refrain.

Ali

[system]

Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 17 2005,15:47)

And I also have a brain; one that I'm arrogant enough to think is highly intelligent and analytical.

Good than I will appeal to your mind.
Are you any good at math?
The reason I ask is this.
There are at least 2,345 prophecies in the Old Testament which detail the life of Christ, and how He was to die.
ALL OF THEM CAME TRUE.
So what would be the odds, of a person living his life according to the scriptures prophesies, and completing every one before death?
I have heard some numbers already and they are pretty high in the 18 digit/1 area and higher.--pretty close to impossible IMHO.
There are too many variables in life to follow a script so precisly and intentionally. Where one is born,(how could you control that from the womb?) How one dies by anothers hand? just to name two.
Heck I can't even follow the traffic laws to get to work on time, lwet alone a string of prophecies I would have to fufill!


And to me, the bible just does not add up.

It abounds with self inconsistencies, contradictions and downright daftness.

Not only that, but it also contradicts much of what appears to be real in the real world
To that I can only say this.
There are no inconsistencies in Gods word.
Everthing He has spoken remains true for all time.
The Bible is not all His word. Many authors have added to it, so it does contain Historial events from different perspectives.
Jesus also gave us the words of His Father. His words and Gods words are the same. And there are no contradictions among them.
So I would examine the actual words of God, and Jesus before making such a lofty statement.
And not disreguard the words of God, because of the inconsitancy of man, and his many literary flaws.

As far as it contradicting things in the real world.
It should, it is about the spiritual, not the physical. You cannot measure a spirit, nor weigh it when it leaves the body.
But does that mean it does not exist? Not to me.
There are powers and energies in this world and universe for which we will never understand or discover, even within ourselves. But God already knows all of that knowlege, and yes most of it contradicts our perception of the "real world".

You say you are highly intelligent, and I don't argue that, in OUR terms of intelligence. But if one was so/more intelligent could one think a thought, and have it appear?
Is intelligence enough to do it? and if so, how much intelect would it require? Or is knowlege, power, and wisdom required to get things done in that manner?
Or is your lack of intelligence keeping you from thinking things into existence? Go ahead, try it some time...but don't hurt your brain...or I will loose my entertainment for the day!


keep shinin' Ali,

jerm

[system]

Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 17 2005,18:23)

to do my part to help the plight of the Africans. I support a group of church called Grace Network. They take the money I tythe and give Africans the greatest gift one could bestow, words of salvation.

There's so much I want to say in response to that Jerm, but it's probably wiser if I refrain.

A
Go ahead and say, I will not be offended. I have read your veiws on people giving glory to God for winning something, so nothing would shock me at this point.

I did not say they give them salvation. But the words or message of it. It is a gift none the less. Whether or not they recieve it, it up to them.
Oh, and they do help them out with monetary needs, so...It's not a total loss...is it? lol

jerm

[system]

Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 17 2005,18:23)

<!–QuoteBegin> Quote Well I can tell you one thing that is wrong with that. You are lacking the faith to have your prayers answered if you cannot assume they already are only beause you haven’t seen it happen. In order to have prayer be effective, it must be beleived that it will happen, and is happening when you speak it. And how have you verified that Jerm? It wouldn’t be difficult I imagine; just you and a group of people who believe like you do, praying for 50 kids with leukaemia, ought to do it. Of course, there would need to be another, unprayed for control group. Then you need only see afterwards how many of each group had “miraculous” remissions. Or if you know of a similar valid study, I would be interested in seeing any references.

Well that would be nearly impossible to do, in the manner at which you describe. For one reason, if there were 50 people in the other control group how could one garantee that no-one in their respective families would pray for them.
Not only that, it wouldn’t take a group of people to pray.
Only one, who believes would be sufficient.
Also some may recover in the control group due to their own faith.
There’s just too many factors to prove anything one way or the other by data.
And I wouldn’t think it morally right myself to play games with peoples lives just to find such data, IMHO…do as you wish, I will not be part of such an experiment.


There have been studie though, I don’t have the data in front of me, or a link…sorry.

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So, unless God decides to speak to me personally, in a manner I’m capable of understanding, then I obviously have been denied THE TRUTH which has been granted to you.

Careful what you wish for. All things in His time, my freind.

jerm

[TomS]

Jeremy, design a test that would prove the efficacy of prayer.

Do you know Anthony Flew’s “gardener problem”? Here is a description:



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The Gardener Suppose … that we are in doubt as to what someone is asserting, or suppose that, more radically, we are skeptical as to whether he is really asserting anything at all, one way of trying to understand (or perhaps it will be to expose) his utterance is to attempt to find what he would regard as counting against, or as being incompatible with, its truth. - Antony Flew, “Theology and Falsification” in New Essays in Philosophical Theology (1955) A man and a woman are walking through the forest and they come upon a clearing. “Oh,” says the man, “there must be a gardener who comes and tends this spot.” “I doubt it,” says the woman. “But we can wait and see.” They wait for a long time, but no gardener appears. “See?” says the woman. “No gardener.” “I’m sure there’s a gardener,” says the man. “This spot is just too neat and pretty to have got here by chance. I think the gardener is real, but he’s just invisible.” “Invisible? Okay. We’ll leave a tape recorder, and if this invisible gardener comes, we’ll find out for sure.” So they leave a tape recorder and come back several days later. They find nothing on the tape recorder except natural forest sounds. “That proves it,” the woman says. “No gardener!” “Wait,” says the man. “I believe this is a very special gardener. He is both invisible and inaudible.” The woman then suggests several more experirnents and they try them, but they all fail. Finally the man says: “I believe this gardener is invisible, inaudible, intangible in every way. He does not trip wires or show up on photographic plates or rnake noises or any of that. He is a very special gardener indeed.” A bit exasperated, the woman says “What, after all, is the difference between a gardener like the one you describe, and no gardener at all?” This little story is due to Antony Flew, who generalized it to apply to theology., What, indeed, is the difference between a God that is invisible, intangible, inaudible, etc, and no God at all? If a statement has any meaning, it has to be falsifiable. That is, if a real statement, with content, is true, then certain other statements have to be false. If it is true that, for example, it is raining outside, then it must be false that I can go out without an umbrella or a raincoat or some protective covering and not get wet. Take the statement “God loves us.” If it is true, what does it mean? Does he protect us from all harm and evil? What is not the case that would be the case if God did not love us? Bibliography Flew, Antony, “Theology and Falsification,” in New Essays in Philosophical Theology, New Yorks Macmillan, 1955. Hick, John, The Existence of God, New York: Macmillan, 1964.

That was from:
http://people.uncw.edu/stanleym/bewitch/71.html

[system]

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Take the statement “God loves us.” If it is true, what does it mean? Does he protect us from all harm and evil? What is not the case that would be the case if God did not love us?

This statement is from someone without faith.
Jesus says in other words, "we should not answer a fool according to his folly."

But I will say this just to share my undertanding of our relationship to God.
In His eyes we are all His children.
There comes a point in a childs life when he/she must learn on their own.
If He would protect us from everything how would we ever learn? How would we grow?
When you teach a child to ride a bike you go along the back holding the banana seat. At some point you feel your child is ready to balance on his own. You have to let go to find out. Does that mean you do not love your child? No.
If that child falls over and hurts himself, does that now mean you didn’t love him enough to stop it? No.

So is our relationship with God our Father. He lets us fall down so that we can learn and grow.
all of our struggles only bring us closer to Him.
Many cry out in despiration to God. So without despiration, when would they call His name?
Many only ask for His help when they have no other way. So when would they ask, if they need no help?
If we were coddled children many of use would take for granted that things will always be great, we would always be protected, and never seek for God’s help, or His guidance.

So in conclusion, He loves us enough to let us live our own lives, just as a good father does for his child.

keep shinin’

jerm

[Willy]

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Even though I call myself an atheist, that’s just a convenient label. Although I’ve no evidence of the existence of a god, neither do I deny the possibility.

Excuse my ignorance, but that’s pretty much my view on things. Is “agnostic” more accurate?

For what it’s worth though, I personally know a bloke who was in a wheelchair from Multiple Sclerosis. I asked him how come he was now walking around and it turns out a bunch of people laid hands on him (all at once) and prayed for him. Bingo, walking there and then. That’s some freaky shit.

Willy.

[system]

Quote (Willy @ Aug. 17 2005,20:50)

For what it’s worth though, I personally know a bloke who was in a wheelchair from Multiple Sclerosis. I asked him how come he was now walking around and it turns out a bunch of people laid hands on him (all at once) and prayed for him. Bingo, walking there and then. That’s some freaky shit. Willy.

I only wish, Ali and Tom could have been there to see it.
Since they needs some sort of proof.

Of course one with a intelligent mind, would see through an such obvious conspiracy. Your freind obviously fooled the doctors into thinking he was ill, along with yourself. Just so the people who layed hands on him could say Jesus healed him!
And another, with such a accute scholarly knowlege of theology, would say, Jesus had nothing to do with it. Rather, all those hands putting pressure on him, somhow re-aligned his spine, and reversed the effects of the deterioration!


But I know all things happen in His time. So when it is time for them to see, they will…and not a moment before!




jerm

[system]

Quote (Wihan Stemmet @ Aug. 17 2005,04:25)

<!–QuoteBegin> Quote The Stick Your Weenie in a Bun Foundation Eeeeeeeeeeww Tim - you are a nut as well. But a very pleasant, level headed and cool nut !

Thanks Wihan. That’s the best compliment I’ve had in a long time… It was a compliment… right

TG

[system]

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Jeremy, design a test that would prove the efficacy of prayer.

Design a test to DISPROVE the efficacy of prayer.

Like Willy, I have personally seen many “miracles” that cannot be explained by anything other than divine intervention through the prayers of God loving people. Trust me, I am as analytical and skeptical as any of you guys, BUT… I have seen it, so I believe it.

TG

PS I thought we were supposed to be solving the bun/weenie ratio problem thingie?

[Ali_G]

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Are you any good at math?

You’d be astounded Jerm.

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ALL OF THEM CAME TRUE. So what would be the odds, of a person living his life according to the scriptures prophesies, and completing every one before death? I have heard some numbers already and they are pretty high in the 18 digit/1 area and higher.–pretty close to impossible IMHO.

Before perfoming a statistical analysis, it’s essential to verify the data.

Here’s a true story…

Three years ago my brother was due to fly to Austria for a meeting. The night before the flight, his wife had a dream that his plane crashed. In the morning, she told him about it, and cried and begged him to change his flight.

He did so, and the plane he was due to go on crashed, killing everyone on board.

A miracle? Divine intervention?

Neither, because I lied; I’ve just made the whole story up; and that’s very easy to do long after the event isn’t it?

Consider the next piece I quote from you…

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Everything He has spoken remains true for all time. The Bible is not all His word. Many authors have added to it, so it does contain Historial events from different perspectives…And not disreguard the words of God, because of the inconsitancy of man, and his many literary flaws.

So, how do you know what was added after Jerm?

As Tom will no doubt confirm, the whole Bethlehem thing is thought by many scholars to have been added afterwards so as to “confirm” the prophesies.

And how much else does that apply to?

But, I do have an apology to make. I was operating on the assumption that you were one of the many who claim that the bible, word for word, is literally true. But I see now that that assumption was unjustified, so again, I apologise.

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Go ahead and say, I will not be offended. I have read your veiws on people giving glory to God for winning something, so nothing would shock me at this point.

No, I never said that Jerm.

What I said was, that if an athlete claims that his victory was given by God, then he’s also claiming that God made the losers lose, and thereby, the implication is that there is something “special” about that athlete; that in God’s eyes, he is “better” than everyone else.

And to me, that is nothing more than arrogance of the worst kind.

Don’t you see my point?

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Design a test to DISPROVE the efficacy of prayer.

Tim, you know better than that.

But you also know that statistical evidence can be tested.

Whether that evidence constitutes “a truth” or not, is a whole other question, but it’s still valid evidence.

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Quote (Willy @ Aug. 17 2005,20:50) For what it’s worth though, I personally know a bloke who was in a wheelchair from Multiple Sclerosis. I asked him how come he was now walking around and it turns out a bunch of people laid hands on him (all at once) and prayed for him. Bingo, walking there and then. That’s some freaky shit. Willy. I only wish, Ali and Tom could have been there to see it. Since they needs some sort of proof.

Yes, I’d have liked to have been there too.

And I’d also have liked the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Yuri Geller, and Bongo and his magic banana to have been there too.

So, when they all claimed responsibility for the “miracle”, which one would you have believed?

Anyway, not seeing any point in answering every point (although, I’m more than prepared to do so if required), I’d just like to make a few general observations.

I do not decry the validity of faith nor religion.

I do not decry the importance of faith nor religion in the lives of individuals nor society as a whole.

Even if I could in some way disprove the existence of God, I would not do so. I have neither the right nor desire to undermine the central core of anyone’s sense of being.

However, when anyone posts something that to me, appears daft, I will take great delight in taking pot shots at it.

Ali

[Ali_G]

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Excuse my ignorance, but that’s pretty much my view on things. Is “agnostic” more accurate?

Willy, the definition of atheist and agnostic seems to vary depending on who is using them. For some, “agnostic” means that they believe there is a God, but he is unknowable, for others it means that they don’t have a clue either way.

So I find it easier to just write “atheist” on my hospital admission form; that way I don’t get anyone coming in and praying at me half way through the latest episode of Eastenders.

However, I do not deride the value of prayer from people who really mean it.

As some of you may recall, I’ve been going through some right shit recently, and still am.

Many of you offered prayers for me, and that helped a lot. I don’t believe that God intervened because of those prayers, in fact, things have not improved at all. But those prayers from people I like and respect made me feel a lot better, and that feeling helped me cope with everything.

So, no matter how much I attack the whole religion thing, please keep praying.

Ali

[system]

Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 17 2005,18:23)

to do my part to help the plight of the Africans. I support a group of church called Grace Network. They take the money I tythe and give Africans the greatest gift one could bestow, words of salvation.

There's so much I want to say in response to that Jerm, but it's probably wiser if I refrain.

Ali
Maybe I won't refrain Ali What the people need in Africa is food, medecines, clean drinking water.
It's nice that you have Faith Jerm, but if you sent your money to someone who would use it to feed the people, it would keep them alive.
As much as you want to believe otherwise, words of salvation will not do that!

Ian

[Ali_G]

Don’t talk such utter nonsense Ian!

A good meal will only keep their kids alive for an extra day or two.

A bible they can sit and stare at for ever. (Well, the jackals can anyway. )

Ali

[system]

Quote (Sceptic Tank @ Aug. 18 2005,02:59)

Don't talk such utter nonsense Ian! A good meal will only keep their kids alive for an extra day or two. A bible they can sit and stare at for ever. (Well, the jackals can anyway. ) Ali

Good job I understand your cynical Gallic wit Ali Think I ought to drop out of this thread as this is one of the only issues I get hot under the collar over
Short story to illustrate my feelings;
At a Christmas family gathering, my brother-in-law( a lay preacher ), proudly exhibited an article he had written in the Church magazine entitled " Society's debt to the homeless". He was warmly applauded by the rest of the family apart from me. I said " Well you have a 3 bedroom house and only you and your wife live there, so how many homeless are you going to take off the street for the Christmas holiday,and share your food, drink etc... That would really mean something"
His reply was " Don't be ridiculous"
When I said that the truth was he wouldn't consider having one of the "smelly buggers" under his roof, I was immediately ostracised by the whole of my wife's family ( no bad thing mind, as she is now my ex-wife )
You see I have no time for people who preach but will not do!
As Ian Anderson said about God " He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays"
Cheers Ali!!

[Willy]

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I only wish, Ali and Tom could have been there to see it.

Well, I didn’t see it, but I’d seen him around in the wheelchair, and worked with him afterwards. Like I said, freaky shit.

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It’s nice that you have Faith Jerm, but if you sent your money to someone who would use it to feed the people, it would keep them alive.

I was going to say something along the lines of “You can’t eat words” in response to Jerm, but I think it’s better that he’s at least doing something, unlike me, and he did say that they help those in financial need.

Willy.

[system]

Quote (Willy @ Aug. 18 2005,08:12)

It's nice that you have Faith Jerm, but if you sent your money to someone who would use it to feed the people, it would keep them alive.

I was going to say something along the lines of "You can't eat words" in response to Jerm, but I think it's better that he's at least doing something, unlike me, and he did say that they help those in financial need.

Willy.
I take your point Willy. All I was trying to say was that Faith and words of salvation are no doubt fine things, but sometimes people have more immediate needs.
BTW it's always interesting to parry with jerm cos his faith is so strong and I don't have any problem with that or with Jerm himself.

[TomS]

Nope, TG, you’re not going to get me to do Jeremy’s work! It is easy to design a test for the efficacy of prayer…but I’m still curious what Jeremy would offer as a test.

Jeremy?

[system]

Well, I’m a thousand miles from home (literally) and just got a quick net connection between server rack builds:

Just want to say the following:

Tim - Yip - the most sincerest complement.

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You are lacking the faith to have your prayers answered if you cannot assume they already are only beause you haven’t seen it happen.

That sounds just a little self rigtious doesn’t it ? (But I think I know what you mean)

Ian (Bruffie) - Doing something in faith sometimes means put your money where you’re mouth is. What an awesome thing to be supporting a family. Give the people what they need 1st, and then tell them why you believe you need to share some of your fortune. Way to go !

Tom - I’m not ignoring you, I’m just out of town/touch/time. I’ll check out that link when I’m back in Cape Town again, and have the time. Thanks !

Willy - That is freaky shit. I’ve been part of something like that before, and it is next to impossible to comprehend it yourself, let alone trying to prove how it happened, but yet, there that guy is walking again. (BTW MS is worse if men gets it than women.)

Ali - thanks for listening/commenting the way you always do. I like the way you go about life/other people/other people’s beliefs. Man I so want to see Scotland and come and say hi…


Well, I’m off to power up those VM’s…

See you guys again maybe Thursday.

Wihan