Got to pull the handle a lot to get all the crap to go down…may a plunger is needed. 
Sorry, just saw this. It seems relevent without pointing fingers.
Many middle-income Americans lack insurance
Study: 40 percent without coverage in 2005, up from 28 percent in 2001
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12480260/
ksdb - based on your reply with MM, I guess I’m not following your argument.
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| Be honest. Let’s go back to the 1980s when the liberals constantly called Reagan a warmonger, that he was senile and that he was making people homeless (they were called bums and hobos before Reagan). |
This isn’t true?
Of course, liberals were attacking Reagan, and conservatives were attacking Carter, etc. But your claim is that Democrats are the dividers is just not true. If any thing is a divider, it’s the vicious partisan politics that both sides have partake in.<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| The liberals still use the same class warfare/rich for the richer arguments (more divisiness) that they used then. |
And you don’t think this is true? Wealth has been accumulating with the rich since Reagan. The public has accepted or bought into the Republican politics and allowed it to occur. We’ll see if the thinking will change. My guess is that it will change when people see they are getting screwed.
You know I totally disagree with you on Valerie Plame because we’ve discussed this before. But seriously, if you know so much why don’t you contact the Special Prosecutor and tell him his investigation is a waste of time. I’ll do it for you if you’d like - I’m sure he’d love to hear from you.
I pulled out of this thread a few pages back. Never got my question answered. So many half truths and spins from ksdb, I just got worn out. Maybe someday he will have the guts to actually answer a question and stand by it. Until that happens he is not much more than a flame machine…
| Quote (TomS @ April 26 2006,05:22) |
| Reagan was suffering from the beginnings of senility in the last few years, everyone knows that, and his policies did put a huge number of mentally ill people out on the street. This Bush is a warmonger, and makes Reagan look quite peaceful, really. Man, you guys sure can move a thread along quickly!
|
Now you’re gettin’ it. Nixon dumped the mentally ill out first. I left the party behind then.
There was a time when most sane people looked upon mental illness as a disability. The neo-cons seem to look upon it as a goal. And they’re a very goal oriented bunch.
SO… Media Matters doesn’t align itself with the DNC. Here’s a newsflash…Liberals think liberally…we’re not robots or the Borg thinking with 1 brain. I don’t totally agree with Dr.Guitar, Tom, BillClarke, MrSoul, Phoo, BubbaGump, (I’d like to thank the academy…) or several others 100% of the time. But they do something NORMAL THINKERS do. They learn. They err. They correct their errors and move FORWARD. I don’t know what parties they belong to but even if some are Republican, none have displayed a neo-con mentality. The Democratic party (To neo-cons) seems like it doesn’t have solutions because we don’t all have the same single minded idea. We’re idea people. We explore options and hash it out…and ya I know Bill is in Canada…
Clinton said it best when he said A Democrat and a Republican will go dig a hole…a hole being a problem (attacking the problem) for those on the slow side. When the Democrat wears out his shovel he climbs out of the hole and looks for a better place to dig. The Republican hollers up to send down another shovel…and another…and another.
Pretty soon these guys will realize that you are 100% right in everything. You control the Executive, Legistlative and Judicial branches of America. You control the media and you have a symbiotic relationship with the corporations (think of Tilke and the thing in his stomach if it helps). You control the UN (yes America always has). You control everything except the voices of the other parties (and the voices of much the rest of the world). But they are insignificant to you and you don’t really care if they all died suddenly because their voices taunt you. You’re in control but still they taunt you. THEY must be the reason you can’t seem to get it right. How can you lead effectively with all those voices? They remind you you support torture, that you’ve killed scores upon score thousands of innocents. They remind you of your willingness to corrupt the election process while you chant that the end justifies the means. They remind you that the moral fiber of the Club you belong to is based on avarice. They remind you that you worship Mammon…and do so because you’re 100% right 100% of the time and that if those voices would only go away…you could live with the rest of it. And they will. They will go away. Just as soon as your team figures out how to dispense the hallucinogenics to the rest of us…you know…the ones your party members have taken voluntarily for the last 20 years. PLEASE do it soon so that we can stop taunting you and ourselves…yes we are taunted just as much trying to figure out why you are you.
Everyone…Feel Free to add another 15 pages of rebuttal tonight. Me? I’m gonna record something.
KingFish
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| Everyone…Feel Free to add another 15 pages of rebuttal tonight. |
Ummm… no. Not I said the blind man.
D
Pretty much agree KingFish. So why is it that many millions who are not rich, and in fact are substantially harmed by repub principles, vote for them? 
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 26 2006,18:55) |
| ksdb - based on your reply with MM, I guess I’m not following your argument. |
I was right about mediamatters. Today they are promoting the DNC statement that slams Tony Snow, which means they are basically flip-floppers. They’re saying Tony Snow was against the administration before becoming a stooge for it. It can’t be that Tony Snow is a balanced journalist, they just want to smear Tony Snow because it will smear Bush.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 26 2006,18:55) | ||
<!–QuoteBegin>
This isn’t true? Of course, liberals were attacking Reagan, and conservatives were attacking Carter, etc. But your claim is that Democrats are the dividers is just not true. If any thing is a divider, it’s the vicious partisan politics that both sides have partake in. |
I’d like to see what kind of attacks on Carter were as alarmist as the warmonger and homeless nonsense that the liberals and LMSM used ad nauseum in the 1980s.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 26 2006,18:55) | ||
<!–QuoteBegin>
And you don’t think this is true? Wealth has been accumulating with the rich since Reagan. The public has accepted or bought into the Republican politics and allowed it to occur. We’ll see if the thinking will change. My guess is that it will change when people see they are getting screwed. |
IFP Clinton bragged about making more millionaires in the 1990s and income inequality rose to record levels during his adminstration. Not a peep out of the liberals about the rich getting richer, of which IFP Clinton loves to use as a talking point for himself. "I’m one of those rich fellers who gets those tax breaks for the rich, hehe. (paraphrased)"
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 26 2006,18:55) |
| You know I totally disagree with you on Valerie Plame because we’ve discussed this before. But seriously, if you know so much why don’t you contact the Special Prosecutor and tell him his investigation is a waste of time. I’ll do it for you if you’d like - I’m sure he’d love to hear from you. |
Most prosecutors file charges for the actual crime itself instead of perjury and obstruction of justice, which are usually add-ons and not primary charges. Is it really this hard to figure out if Plame’s identity was truly leaked or not illegally.
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| If any thing is a divider, it’s the vicious partisan politics that both sides have partake in. |
Ooooohhh… now THERE we go! Carry on… just lurkin’…
D
PS Mike? You forgot to follow that up with “The Republicans are the worst and THEY started it!!”
ksdb, media matters is non-partisan, they have rules for what they identify as a problem, and have regularly criticized people of all persuasions. If they come down more often on the Snows of the media world, there might be a reason for that.
And Reagan was experiencing the onset of senility in his last few years in office, so I’m not sure that saying that he was senile can be called spin.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) | ||
Now you’re gettin’ it. Nixon dumped the mentally ill out first. I left the party behind then. There was a time when most sane people looked upon mental illness as a disability. The neo-cons seem to look upon it as a goal. And they’re a very goal oriented bunch. SO… Media Matters doesn’t align itself with the DNC. Here’s a newsflash…Liberals think liberally…we’re not robots or the Borg thinking with 1 brain. |
No, mediamatters went out on a limb before the party line was set. They ARE toeing it this morning.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| I don’t totally agree with Dr.Guitar, Tom, BillClarke, MrSoul, Phoo, BubbaGump, (I’d like to thank the academy…) or several others 100% of the time. But they do something NORMAL THINKERS do. They learn. They err. They correct their errors and move FORWARD. |
And of course anyone who doesn’t automatically agree with you is NOT a NORMAL THINKER. You are defining your own selves as dividers. Good job.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| I don’t know what parties they belong to but even if some are Republican, none have displayed a neo-con mentality. The Democratic party (To neo-cons) seems like it doesn’t have solutions because we don’t all have the same single minded idea. We’re idea people. We explore options and hash it out…and ya I know Bill is in Canada… |
So you’re one big brainstorm waiting for a good idea to emerge someday??
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| Clinton said it best when he said A Democrat and a Republican will go dig a hole…a hole being a problem (attacking the problem) for those on the slow side. When the Democrat wears out his shovel he climbs out of the hole and looks for a better place to dig. The Republican hollers up to send down another shovel…and another…and another. |
Sounds like another Democrat just choosing to be divisive by ridiculing his political opposition to me. Is that why you like it??
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| Pretty soon these guys will realize that you are 100% right in everything. You control the Executive, Legistlative and Judicial branches of America. |
We control the executive branch and we have a majority in the legislative branch, but some decisions require a supermajority, so it’s not exactly true to say that Republicans control it. The judicial branch is NOT in control by either party and it’s silly to suggest that it is.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| You control the media and you have a symbiotic relationship with the corporations (think of Tilke and the thing in his stomach if it helps). |
This is just utter nonsense. The media has a very pronounced liberal tilt and corporations are not political entities.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| You control the UN (yes America always has). |
If this was the case, then the UN would have joined the war effort in Iraq.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| You control everything except the voices of the other parties (and the voices of much the rest of the world). But they are insignificant to you and you don’t really care if they all died suddenly because their voices taunt you. |
Yes, exactly as I said. Taunting is a form of dividing.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| You’re in control but still they taunt you. THEY must be the reason you can’t seem to get it right. How can you lead effectively with all those voices? They remind you you support torture, that you’ve killed scores upon score thousands of innocents. They remind you of your willingness to corrupt the election process while you chant that the end justifies the means. They remind you that the moral fiber of the Club you belong to is based on avarice. They remind you that you worship Mammon…and do so because you’re 100% right 100% of the time and that if those voices would only go away…you could live with the rest of it. And they will. They will go away. Just as soon as your team figures out how to dispense the hallucinogenics to the rest of us…you know…the ones your party members have taken voluntarily for the last 20 years. PLEASE do it soon so that we can stop taunting you and ourselves…yes we are taunted just as much trying to figure out why you are you. |
Sorry, but this whole paragraph is a little over the top. I will point out again, that the nature of the comments are NOT constructive but look to be divisive, which is what I have been pointing out about liberals since Page 1.
| Quote (KingFish @ April 26 2006,20:08) |
| Everyone…Feel Free to add another 15 pages of rebuttal tonight. Me? I’m gonna record something. KingFish |
That will be 14 pages of personal attacks against me and one or two arguments that actually stay on topic. I prefer the latter for obvious reasons.
| Quote (TomS @ April 27 2006,10:56) |
| ksdb, media matters is non-partisan, they have rules for what they identify as a problem, and have regularly criticized people of all persuasions. |
Especially those media outlets who might inadvertently defend President Bush. Today they’re attacking an LA Times editorial that defends Beush, and they’re claiming that the media is ignoring Bush flip-flops (in addition to smearing Tony Snow). Sounds like a pretty full Bush-bashing agenda.
| Quote (TomS @ April 27 2006,10:56) |
| If they come down more often on the Snows of the media world, there might be a reason for that. |
Yes, it’s because they are NOT nonpartisan and have a liberal agenda.
| Quote (TomS @ April 27 2006,10:56) |
| And Reagan was experiencing the onset of senility in his last few years in office, so I’m not sure that saying that he was senile can be called spin. |
IOW, it’s okay to criticize people for being mentally ill and/or old as long as they really are?? And you weren’t paying attention Tom; I didn’t say it was spin, I pointed out these comments to show that liberals have a tradition of being divisive.
ksdb - I think you are wrong about MM, i.e., they were already against Snow from the start. By definition, the press secretary has to be a stooge for the President regardless of what party is in control. I coundn’t find your original link to the 1st MM’s article but MM doesn’t follow exactly that the DNC does. MM also doesn’t look at all news outlets, i.e., they tend to watch only the major ones.
Of course, politicians have always smeared each other, but the Republicans did start the perfection of the smear politics with Lee Atwater. It later became referred to as opposition research. Now both parties do it all the time. Prove that I’m wrong.
Hey guys, ksdb is not listening. And if you aren’t sure about that, go back and read his responses. 99% of the time he completely misses the point and twists everyones comments into something he can use as a taunt.
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| This is just utter nonsense. The media has a very pronounced liberal tilt and corporations are not political entities |
This is a recent comment by ksdb and shows either that he is completely disconnected with reality or that he just wants to flame everyone.
"corporations are not political entities"
I mean… wow… why are there lobbists?
Or maybe they don’t exist either…
How about this one…
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote | ||
<!–QuoteBegin>
If this was the case, then the UN would have joined the war effort in Iraq. |
In other words, "If you aren’t for us, then you’re against us."
He doesn’t even consider the possiblity that some thinking folks can be allowed to believe that going to war with Iraq was wrong. I mean if you live in the US, why would you think anything else?
ksdb’s arguments are flawed and really a waste of time. I was hoping back on page one to get him to actually think and put forward “why” he supports George Bush. I would have welcomed a thoughtful response. But instead I got pages of sidestepping and twisted spinning. And so it continues…
Divisiveness is the result of playing the blame game. It’s just as true here in the corporate world where I work as it is in the government which is just a huge corporate environment.
If the shoe were on the other foot, would 9/11, Iraq, the Federal response to Katrina and any other ‘disaster’ laid on Dubya’s doorstep be any different? No it would not. We’d be sitting here bemoaning the ineptness of some other dude with a Democrat party card in his wallet.
Our “leaders” have lost touch with what matters. The thing first and foremost in their minds is $$$$. Not what’s best for the country. Responsibility and integrity have been tossed down the shitter a long time ago. Don’t believe me? What if average citizen Johnny Joe Johnson drove his car in the lake while drunk and drowned his companion? He’d be in prison and prison is where he would stay. I’m not picking on ol’ Ted. That’s just one example of the abuse of wealth and power we have let go on for waaayy too long. Our elected officials should be held to highest standards and they should NOT be allowed to become career politicians. They get spoiled, greedy and thirsty for even more wealth and POWER.
Term limits. One six year term for Pres/Vice Pres. Two four year terms for congess. Then it’s back to the citizen pool. One of the reasons you hear “They have no new ideas!” is the same ol’ a$$holes have been behind the curtains for so long.
Corporate lobbying and campaign support should be outlawed. Period.
Think about it.
D
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) | ||
| Hey guys, ksdb is not listening. And if you aren’t sure about that, go back and read his responses. 99% of the time he completely misses the point and twists everyones comments into something he can use as a taunt. <!–QuoteBegin>
|
There is no “taunt” in that quote. Do you consider “liberal tilt” a taunt?
? | Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) |
| This is a recent comment by ksdb and shows either that he is completely disconnected with reality or that he just wants to flame everyone. "corporations are not political entities" I mean… wow… why are there lobbists? |
A corporation may have political interests, but it doesn’t make them a political entity. Corporations OBVIOUSLY exist for reasons other than politics.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) | ||||
| Or maybe they don’t exist either… How about this one… <!–QuoteBegin>
In other words, "If you aren’t for us, then you’re against us." |
Nonsense. KF said the Republicans and/or Americans control the UN. If we CONTROLLED it, then they would do EVERYTHING WE SAY. Obviously they don’t do everything we say and the idea that we “control the UN” is false.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) |
| He doesn’t even consider the possiblity that some thinking folks can be allowed to believe that going to war with Iraq was wrong. I mean if you live in the US, why would you think anything else? |
People can believe that all they want and they can say they disagree all they want. I’ve never said they couldn’t.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) |
| ksdb’s arguments are flawed and really a waste of time. |
Nobody forces you to read and respond.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) |
| I was hoping back on page one to get him to actually think and put forward “why” he supports George Bush. |
And I explained immediately why I won’t. It’s 15 pages later. What part don’t you understand??
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) |
| I would have welcomed a thoughtful response. |
I disagree. You’ve shown yourself to be very abrasive and unwelcoming and continue to do so.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 27 2006,11:52) |
| But instead I got pages of sidestepping and twisted spinning. And so it continues…
|
These comments prove my point.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 27 2006,11:29) |
| ksdb - I think you are wrong about MM, i.e., they were already against Snow from the start. |
That sounds openminded … not.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 27 2006,11:29) |
| By definition, the press secretary has to be a stooge for the President regardless of what party is in control. |
So did mediamatters smear Clinton’s stooges too??
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 27 2006,11:29) |
| I coundn’t find your original link to the 1st MM’s article but MM doesn’t follow exactly that the DNC does. |
They still have it posted on their splash page underneath the DNC talking points.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 27 2006,11:29) |
| MM also doesn’t look at all news outlets, i.e., they tend to watch only the major ones. |
And is there a point in mentioning this??
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 27 2006,11:29) |
| Of course, politicians have always smeared each other, but the Republicans did start the perfection of the smear politics with Lee Atwater. |
It’s interesting that you call it “perfection.” Does this mean you admire Lee Atwater??
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 27 2006,11:29) |
| It later became referred to as opposition research. Now both parties do it all the time. Prove that I’m wrong. |
You need to prove that you’re right first. I don’t see anything to substantiate the research that led you to your conclusions.
Media matters doesn’t target conservatives, there are just more conservatives in office right now, and hence more likely that pro-Bush op-eds would be the target than, say, pro-Presidetn Kerry. Really, they are governed by content rules, so the warranted conclusion if they spend more time on conservative journalists is that there are more problems of the sort the rules pick out in the conservative media.
Not trying to make you have 7 conversations at once.
For the fun of it, the Republican culture of corruption:
http://leenrage.blogspot.com/2006…ed.html
| Quote (TomS @ April 27 2006,12:57) |
| Media matters doesn’t target conservatives, there are just more conservatives in office right now, and hence more likely that pro-Bush op-eds would be the target than, say, pro-Presidetn Kerry. Really, they are governed by content rules, so the warranted conclusion if they spend more time on conservative journalists is that there are more problems of the sort the rules pick out in the conservative media. Not trying to make you have 7 conversations at once.
|
Have you actually read their background page?? Where do you get the idea that they are “nonpartisan” and that they DON’T target conservatives??
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| Launched in May 2004, Media Matters for America put in place, for the first time, the means to systematically monitor a cross section of print, broadcast, cable, radio, and Internet media outlets for conservative misinformation — news or commentary that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda — every day, in real time. |
Who we are